I had a great conversation recently with Shahidah Foster of Black Girls Learn Languages and SOLS about intercultural communication. Discover why learning a language isn’t enough to be effective at intercultural communication.

Before we begin…

Choose how you want to enjoy this episode – video with subtitles, podcast on the go, or read the blog version below.

The Video

The Podcast

Intercultural Communication: Going Beyond Words with Shahidah Foster

Links from this Conversation

Black Girls Learn Languages

BGLL on YouTube

BGLL Facebook Group (a safe space for Black Women)

BGLL on Instagram

Culture Shock Books

Homeschooling Stats Around the World

TL;DR – Lessons from this Conversation

After years living in both Germany and the US, Shahidah has a great perspective on intercultural communication. The little nuances and curiosities that could come off as confusing, frustrating or even rude when you’ve got a lack of effective intercultural communication.

Shahidah also shared some great suggestions for brushing up on your intercultural communication. Some of these include checking forums like Reddit when you’re wondering why Germans don’t really have air con, or books about cultural barriers and statistical data on other people’s international experiences.

As always, it was a great reminder on how relevant intercultural communication is (and should be) even when we’re not aiming for fully fluent with a language. Shahidah’s advice in that situation? Just get started.

Transcript

Lindsay:

Hello, welcome back to How to Learn a Language.
I’m very excited to share an interview with time and I’m talking with Shahidah Foster of Black Girls Learn Languages.
I was really excited to have this conversation because we’ve been kind of Like very loosely communication through things like women in language and kind of really promoting and sharing each other’s events and things that we’re doing.
She co-hosts an event called Souls as well sometimes.
All of this kind of stuff, but we’ve never had a chance to sit down.
Shahidah, I invited Shahidah to suggest some topics and one really stuck out to me as you’re here.
We’re going to talk a little bit more about intercultural communication and why language learning alone isn’t enough to be effective in that space of intercultural communication.
She really has some great perspectives on this.
After living in both Germany and the US, there’s this really wonderful understanding that she has that is completely respectful, completely open and curious.
You’ll hear me ask as well, how can we ask, how can we learn about this stuff without coming across as kind of Being overly critical or perhaps insulting or rude, it’s quite a difficult thing to discuss sometimes with people, so I was really grateful for Shahidah for offering up this topic and for
being so generous and smart with her responses as well, and I hope you enjoy our conversation.
Hey, hello, hello!
Welcome!

Thank you for joining me.
I’m really, really excited to talk about the topic that you suggested.
When you sent a couple through and I was like, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, let’s go.
So, first of all, for anyone listening who maybe is seeing you for the first time, I’ll give you a chance to introduce yourself in the way that you would like to be introduced.

Shahidah:
Okay, well, very simple.
My name is Shahidah.
I am the creator of Black Girls Learned Languages, which is a multi-platform digital community.

It’s just the community for black women who are learning languages, passionate about languages so that they can find people that look like them and share cultural perspective viewpoints that they share, musing that they can just share and vent a little bit.
So that’s basically what it is and that we share resources and stuff like that.
So that’s who I am, what I do.

Lindsay:
We’ve never had the chance to properly sit down and talk one on one.
That’s another reason I’m really looking forward to today, but we know each other because you’ve spoken at women in language and we’ve supported each other that way through your event as well, through souls.
There’s been all these little moments We’ve never had a proper sit-down conversation, so thank you for joining me today.
We’re going to talk about why learning a language is not enough to be effective at intercultural communication.

First of all, why did you suggest this?
Why is this something that’s been on your mind, perhaps?

Shahidah:

It’s something that I wanted, I plan to talk about on my platform.
It’s something that has come across multiple times in the course of just living because I’m also living in Germany.
I’m living in Germany and So it’s something when you’re communicating with people who don’t have the same culture as you, you start to realize that speaking the same language isn’t enough because there’s these cultural nuances to language and it doesn’t matter if they’re speaking your native
language or you’re speaking bears, there’s going to be that level of things that are not going to be understood because certain things when you speak English with someone you take for granted that they understand.
So that’s just something that I don’t think people realize I think a lot of people think speaking and language is enough.

Lindsay:
I mean even between like when you were saying that and you said when you speak English and I was like I was hearing you and I’m thinking oh you’re talking to me when I speak English and then I’m like yeah because we both speak English but there’ll be things where I could say and I could totally go
off and film my English with British slang and British reference points and stuff and you might be like Not in spell, haven’t got a clue, you know?
And same for you, right?

Shahidah:
Even within a language, these kind of inter-language differences that you’re constantly then needing to think about.
So if you go to another language completely, it just becomes so much more than words, for sure.
It’s just certain behaviors that go with the things that you say or that people take for granted cause and effect.
It’s just things that I’ve noticed over the course of just living here and not just interacting with Germans but also interacting with people who are not from here.
So English obviously would be the lingua franca for people who are not German but also live here.
And it’s like you talk to people in English and you kind of assume certain things and then you have to realize why do I expect them to behave that way or know that thing because they were not raised speaking English.

Lindsay:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Can you give me an example to start us off?

Shahidah:
One of the things that I’ve noticed, I’ve noticed that basically language, like for instance, you speak English, obviously for you, it’s going to be different than for me because for you, you have way more history behind your English as opposed to ours.
Our English is new.
It’s like what So I noticed that with the languages that are young, they tend to be low-context, which means a lot of times we just say what we think.
We say what we mean and that’s just what it is.
The only time there’s like a hidden meaning is if you’re trying to be funny, you’re trying to make a point some kind of way.
But for the most part, with Americans, it’s pretty straight from the hip.
What I say is what I mean.
With other countries like the language like for instance France or maybe even a country that uses French as a reference point like Morocco or something like that, they say things sometimes in a way where it’s like There’s different meanings behind that and it’s up to you to decipher which meaning it
is.
And so then you have to think, okay, so then when they’re speaking English with you, they also have this reference point.
I’m going to say this thing and then it’s up to her to understand what I truly mean by it.
And there’s an assumption there, right?
From the speaker that you will understand and interpret it in the way that they want.
More behavior is a reference point because recently I was with somebody and they’re from there.
So, like for instance, for me, let’s say you come to visit me, right?
You come to visit me, I pick you up at the airport, bring you back to my house.
I’m like, hey, do you want something to drink?
Do you want something to eat?
You tell me no, I’m good.
I’m gonna just say, okay, like, I’m not, that’s it.
Like, you said you’re good.
Okay, when you want something, go get it.
And I think in certain cultures, not just cinema, rockin’ culture, but in other cultures that are high context, there’s this banter that needs to be had.
Oh, are you sure?
Oh no, are you sure?
Oh no, are you know whatever?
Or you’re not supposed to ask?
Because then you look like you don’t have manners, but it’s kind of like, hey, you’ve been on a plane through X amount of time.
I know you’re tired, I know you’re hungry, you’re exhausted.
So it’s like… You don’t ask, then when they ask, you can’t say the first time you want it because then it looks like you have no home training.
So there has to be this banter that goes back and forth.
And so that can be a little hard because for instance, if somebody says, hey, do you want some cake?
And I say, no, I’m good.
Usually that’s the end of the story.
But please, no, eat some.
And it’s like, so you think I’m saying no because that’s the, but I’m saying no because I really just don’t want any.
Things like that.
You’re right, that sort of expectation.

Lindsay:

I also think as well, again, coming back to the same language thing, even if I go to my grandma’s house and she’ll say, oh, do you want a biscuit?
And I’ll say no.
She’ll ask like three times.
I’m like, no, I’m in a grandma.
I’m fine.
No biscuits necessary today.
It’s all good.
That’s a really good example because that really does differ and there is that implied understanding that’s going on for you as the respondee and for the person that’s asking, culture dependent.
So we’ve got a good case study there.
How then do we go about Learn this and understand this, because that’s the trickier bit, right?
Because I feel like the easy answer would be, you immerse yourself and you just pick it up, you practice, but there must be more to it than that.

Shahidah:

Yeah, it is.
Let me tell the language part, of course.
It’s all about yourself you can learn.
But one of the things that I learned is, like, Like for instance with French, I’m jumping back into French again and one of the things that I noticed is that in order for me to really understand, I have to really listen.
Not just here, listen, because there’s a difference between like… like there’s a difference between that plural and singular.
I may not be pronouncing it correctly but if you don’t pay attention, you’re like Which one is which one do they sound the same?
The cultural behind, the mindset behind also kind of clues you into why they chose to say it like that as opposed to how you know how to say it, how you would think as a non-native speaker with a different point of reference, how you would think it would be said, and then how it said.
Like, I don’t know, for instance, We say it’s raining cats and dogs, when it’s really outside.
One of the things they say here in Germany is it’s hard to translate it.
It’s watering.
When you get a flower pot, water pot thing, it’s saying it’s really somebody taking the flower pot thing, watering.
And I just thought to myself, how would they say that?
That’s weird.
But people really like to, and I’ve become one of those people, they really like to have flowers on the balcony, flowers on the terrace and gardens and stuff.
Like this is very common here in Germany.
And so then it makes sense to me, okay, because everybody’s plants and stuff.
So it makes sense why they would say like, oh, it’s really watering.
Like they would say that as a thing.
Why would they say that?
How important are plants in the culture?
We think of flowers as romantic, you give that to your girlfriend, or maybe mom on Mother’s Day, but I was reading that and I was like, oh that’s interesting.
As a using that as a bit of an insight to think, why is that different to the way we say it in English or in your native language?

Lindsay:
And the one that comes to mind right away is like, it’s all Greek to me.
Yeah, like in Greek.
And then I’m going to say that.
Right.
You know, what is their reference point equivalent?
And I think I’ve seen like a sort of map of this one and I think it might be It’s all Chinese to me in Greek, I could be wrong, but you know that’s yeah idioms as a as a jumping off point to then give you these deeper insights.

Shahidah:

That’s a good that’s a good one.

Lindsay:

Ok, what else?

Shahidah:

You know here in Germany they don’t say that they say in German, they say it’s for Stenogbahnhof and so it’s equivalent to it’s all Greek to me.
So basically what it is the reason they say that I tried to translate it all Greek to me and they looked at me cross-eyed, like what are you saying?
I learned that they say it’s for Shannon or Bonhoeff and the reason why they say that is because the Bonhoeff means I understand, I only understood train station.
That’s what it means.
And I said what does that mean?
Because when you go to the train station and they make the announcements and the acoustics are so bad and the only word you end up hearing is Bonhoeff.
You don’t hear anything else about the trains and this schedule and this delay because you can’t hear anything really.
And I was like, oh okay, and you know obviously the trains are a big thing.
Everybody takes the train here.
That’s just like a very common mode of transportation here.
Whereas if you’re learning a language that is from a place where trains aren’t that prominent, that’s probably not going to be the expression.

Lindsay:
No.
That’s cool.
I like that one.
So using proverbs and expressions for insight in that way, what else is a good tool or method to get into the intercultural communication as well?

Shahidah:

Asking why?
I think a lot of people don’t ask why a lot.
For instance, when you notice that there’s a breakdown in communication, a lot of times people will assume things like they create these stories.
For instance, I’m trying to think of something.
My friend told me a story.
She’s from Egypt.
And she was telling me about how there was an issue with somebody in the neighborhood here in Germany.
There was a bunch of kids in the neighborhood and some German woman was abusing them or something.
They would go to the park and she would hit them and stuff like that and they’d run home crying.
This is all because they were foreign kids.
So anyway, what ended up happening was one of the families.
I think they were all foreign families and so, like, think one of the family actually was German, so they complained to the police and they went to the neighbors and was like, hey, did this happen to your kid too?
We should all report it.
So they were all like, okay, yeah, sure, we’ll report So then what ended up happening was What ended up happening was, when it came down to the police, we were like, okay now we want to follow up on the statements and everything so we can press charges and everything and this is what’s going to be required of you to come to court the other day.
All of a sudden some of the families are like, oh no we don’t want to deal with this, bye, we’re good.
And so for the outside looking in, it’s like, that’s weird.
Why would they do that?
It makes no sense.
Like you said you wanted to do this, why not?
And so it’s very easy to make up your own stories so why you don’t do that.
However, my friend was saying the reason why is because in Egypt, if you get the police involved, even if you’re the victim, it’s a very good possibility you can disappear and nobody knows where you are and they’ll never find you again.

Lindsay:
How do you think we can ask why inquisitively and curiously without that coming across as a threat?

Shahidah:
I think that’s a really good question because it’s always hard even when it doesn’t have to do with culture, even when it just has to do with everyday things.
It’s hard to ask the question why because sometimes it
It comes off very offensive and not offensive in a way like insulting but offensive like aggressive like why?
And you don’t want to come off as you’re in the offence when you ask why.
One of the things that I try to do is I try to ask people, I try to say, hey, I don’t understand this.
Help me understand.
I don’t understand this.
Why this?
So I think it’s very important that you That’s really, it’s that bit in the middle that you said of, I don’t understand this, can you help me?
Can you help me?
I don’t get it.
Why?
I don’t understand, but I want to.
I’m coming from this genuine place of wanting to understand you better.
Can you help me?
That’s pretty important.
In an inquisitive positive way, also helping to uncover that stuff.
The language you speak is not both of you guys’ native language, so whether it’s not yours or it’s not theirs.
Giving people the benefit of the doubt to say, hey, if it’s your native language, you have to understand that that’s not their native language.
So they may say something and it may sound offensive, but they do not mean it that way.
It’s just that’s something that is said in their language.

Lindsay:
You reminded me of something that happened the other day.
I was in the post office and there was a queue.
There were like two people in front of me, one person on the checkout.
There’s like four empty ones, but that’s beside the point.
But then there was someone who was stood over kind of

They came back over and stood in front of where I was in the queue, but they didn’t join the back of the queue.
So you could see everyone, I don’t know how overly sort of British-specific the queuing-ness of this is, but you could sort of see everyone shuffling their eyes like, but the queue.
So I said, oh, the queue is there, trying to Then it became obvious that the lady didn’t speak English or didn’t speak much English or didn’t understand what I was saying.
I didn’t want it to be this sort of altercation, I didn’t want it to be like back on the line, I’m just merely pointing it out.
But then she, you know, when she starts speaking to her husband in their language, the guy behind me was then like, it’s no good swearing in your own language, is it?
I was like, oh, I don’t know if that’s quite what they’re doing.
I think maybe they were here before, they went over to fill out a form, they’ve tried to come back and join because they kind of were in the queue, you know?

And so there’s this difference there in… Actually, no, if you leave the queue in this country, you leave the queue.
You have to go to the back, that’s just the, again, that kind of intercultural thing, right?

Shahidah:

And yeah, it just felt really, really awkward because I felt bad that they then had to go and wait and there was no way that we could fully communicate.
Were you here before?
And all of that.
So yeah, I like that.
I like that point of why and not instantly judging, not instantly thinking they’re trying to jump the queue, but instead thinking, okay, maybe they were here before, maybe there’s an explanation as to why They think it’s okay to just hop in there.
And I’m going to tell you, hey, I’ve been here, I’ve been waiting, that’s one thing I probably could stay on the work on, but I’m very territorial when it comes to waiting in line.

Lindsay:

It’s a really good example actually, queuing, because I remember being in Cuba, queuing to get in the bank where like, you’ve got to, I don’t know what it’s like now, but you had to at that point go into the bank to get cash out, right?
And so people will be queuing for the bank all day and like the Cubans they know it’s hot and they have this system where they queue in the shade so they kind of join the queue by saying like La Proxima like who’s next and someone will sort of raise a hand and they’ll go okay I’m after you then
they’ll just go and sit in the shade Wherever they can nearby, but then like me and like some Mexicans as well that were in front kind of, you know, stood in the line and all of a sudden someone comes from the shade and stands in and you’re like, Whoa!
But that’s their way, you know, so it’s that same thing, right, of then, okay, well now I’m in your space.
I’m now having to hold back my queue feelings and adapt to your way.
That’s the only way I think that I would have learnt that, unless maybe I intentionally read about it.
The Culture Shock books, I don’t know if they still make them.
The ones I mean, there’s a series, they were a sort of segment of travel books of It might have that sort of stuff in there, but unless you’re intentionally reading that and seeking that out, that stuff you do pick up often in those moments where you have this sort of rude awakening of, oh, this is
different here.
Is there anything you think you can do?
Because as you said, you’re in Germany.
What about before being in a country or when you’re learning a language not in the country?
Obviously you can still ask why you could ask your teacher, your exchange partner, your friends, etc.
Is there anything else specifically other than reading the culture shock type books that can happen outside of the immersive environments you think?

Shahidah:

That’s a good question.
I’d have to say Reddit because Reddit is full of people’s different experiences.
There are different Reddit subreddits you could join like Americans in Germany or whatever.
There’s all these different Reddit and then there’s also groups on Facebook.
Like I’m a member and a moderator this group called Americans in Germany.
And it’s mostly Americans musing about stuff like, hey, why is air conditioning still not a thing?
It’s 2023. 2023. You know, like, stuff like that or like, hey, I was at the store and this German person said this to me.
Is this normal?
And then they have a couple of Germans in the group that will tell you, like, okay, culturally, this is why we do this or this is why, you know, whatever.
And you can find out a lot of stuff like, for instance, there’s no such thing as homeschooling here.
That’s illegal.

Lindsay:
Illegal?!

Shahidah:

Completely. In fact, they will start sending letters home when they notice the kids are not registered.
Because you have to register your address so that they know what you’re living at.
They notice, like, hey, there’s a seven-year-old in this household, but they’re not registered in any of the schools.
You’re going to get letters sent home, like, hey, you need to register them by just in the state.
It’s an issue.
And I was just like, I didn’t know that.
I took it for granted that you can do that.

Lindsay:

Yeah.
Yeah.
Same.
I had no idea.
Illegal!

Shahidah:

It’s not.
You could get fined for that.
They will find you for that.

Lindsay:

Wow. I mean, that is when you don’t want to learn the hard way.

Shahidah:

You don’t want to learn the hard way.
But yeah, I was just, I just took it for granted because I was thinking to myself, like, oh, you know, like, if my niece had to come here, then maybe I could just homeschool her and then I’m like, no, we cannot do that.
I was like, oh goodness, because, you know…

Lindsay:

Do you think other social media platforms can help with that too?
I’m thinking of YouTube, when I always get these thumbnails of like five things to know before you live in Germany or you know that kind of stuff.
Does that fall into that same category?

Shahidah:

It does.
I really think though the best thing is like they have been books.
I think I have a textbook I got when I was doing my masters and it was about cultural barriers and stuff like that and then there was another book I’m currently reading.
Well, I don’t want to say currently reading.
I just have the The bookmark is still in there.
I was reading it and I put it on pause.
But it was also about basically somebody who worked globally and just different parallel, different experiences they had working with different people from different, like for instance, if there was like a German company in China and then these were their findings, these are the different breakdowns
and communication between the Germans.
So books like those that talk about that I think that’s a great starting point.

Lindsay:
You said about that book and the example of the German company in China and how specific do you think this is?
A French company in China versus a British company in China and all of the nuances that each of those people groups are going to find different.
Is it that we can, like I suggested, those sort of culture shock books?
Is it that there’s like one broad reference point of like, okay, this is the thing I need to know.
Do you understand what I’m trying to say?
Like, how nuanced is it, do you think these differences and understanding?

Shahidah:

Well, I mean, it’s always going to be way more than you could ever absorb because the thing is you can say, oh yeah, when I go to Germany, but then you have to realize there’s regions, there’s states, and there’s certain things that they do in certain regions.
They don’t do in other regions.
You may not ever learn or you may learn, but For
instance, here where I live, I’ve never been in this region before I moved here, and one of the things they do is they say Moin, instead of like Wudmågen, they say Moin, and they say Moin Moin, which means they have something like they want to talk.
But then I was like, okay, that was my first time hearing that, even though supposedly they say it in Hamburg, but I never heard it.
And just stuff like that, so if I go to Bayern, Bavaria, trying to say that, they’re gonna look at me like I’m crazy.
But let’s not even talk about the fact that they, I don’t know what language they speak there, but you know, if I go there trying to use some of the regional stuff that I learned of Nita’s accent and Lower Saxony, they’re not gonna, they’re gonna look at me like, okay, because they themselves may
not even be sure where that’s from, they just know that they don’t say that.

Lindsay:
It creates this interesting… kind of overwhelm of where do you begin.
I started learning Arabic this year and it’s something that I’ve sort of like done bits of in the past like various points like I went to Morocco and I sort of learned a few words for that and I spent some time learning the script and all these little nuggets of time but this year I was like okay let’s really go for it and So I started off, I had this book, it’s been on my shelf, and I’m like, just do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do,
do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do
Do you want MSA?
Do you want to learn this?
I’m not going to a particular place or I don’t have a friend from a particular region.
Maybe MSA, but no one speaks MSA.
I feel like there’s this overwhelm that can often come when we’re trying to then distinguish between what It matters to me as a learner given my context that I want to use this language in.
Do I even know the context I want to use it in?
Or am I just learning because I’m curious and I want to enjoy it?
How can we still keep a handle on a kind of intercultural communication stuff without getting like, you know, bored and chained down by this feeling of like needing to understand it all?

Shahidah:

That’s a good question, I don’t know, I just feel like just get started, like just pick something.
Because if you do that, you’ll find yourself five years later, still where you are right now.
So if you just get started with, oh okay, just trying to understand this and then it’ll come with time, even if like It comes in a couple of months, it’ll come with time and you’ll start to get your own sense of direction and okay, this is something, this is how I navigate this.
But just get started, just start trying to learn the language and then trying to, you know, like you suggested, they have the YouTube videos, there’s these different, you know, Google, intercultural communication, you know, like how to master, you know, comparisons between cultures, like the world is your oyster, you can just get started where you want to get started.

Lindsay:
Yeah, that’s important message as well because otherwise you do just stand at the start line looking around like which way and I think you do just have to go forward take some action and then decide again okay I’m going to keep going this way, I’m going to keep going this way.
Actually, if I want to go that way now, that’s fine.
I haven’t wasted time because that’s the thing as well, right?
It feels like I’m wasting time if I pick the wrong dialect or if I learn the wrong, you know, communication stuff for a different country and actually, you know, for, I don’t know, for Argentina and then I end up living in Spain or whatever.
Oh, wasted all that time.
No, none of it is wasted, right?
Because it’s all It forms this much bigger picture and understanding of the whole.
Literally the world.
I was going to say world and I stopped myself.
I was like, no, that’s too big.
No, that’s what it is.
That’s what we’re talking about.

Shahidah:

Definitely.

Lindsay:

And so you’ve been in Germany now for how long?

Shahidah:

So this is my second stay.
So I’ve been here for four years and the first time I was here was here as a military dependent.
Someone was in a military.
I was here for like six years.
This time, I’m here, like, completely civilian in the German residence department, all that stuff.
So, yeah, it’s been about 40 years and it’s been a very interesting experience, especially working, especially academia, because going to school here was definitely a completely different thing, as opposed to, I just feel like in the US, we have a lot of We’re very check tick the boxes and results oriented.
It doesn’t matter like we have a process, we don’t have a process, just get it done.
And I think here it’s not like that at all.
It’s very, this is the process.
Don’t deviate from the process because the process is there to give us consistent results every time.
Follow the process first you have to get it approved.
Draft the new process, go through the channels to formally get it approved, and then once you get it approved, you’re now allowed to use the faster way.
You can’t just say, oh, I’m going to cut this corner and get this out.
You can’t really do that.
I mean, there’s certain things you do have the liberty, but for the most part, if it’s a very procedural thing, a very formal thing, it has to be a meeting, it has to be approved by an approver, then you cannot do that.
It’s very different.
It’s so funny.
I see it now that I’ve been here so long that I’ve gotten acclimated to that.
I see it sometimes.
For instance, Americans, we love to lubricate a request with, Hey, how are you doing?
How’s everything?
You’re good.
I need you to do this for me.
It’s something very tedious.
We love to lubricate a request.
We love to warm someone up.
They are not really for this small talk here.
I find myself, even in my personal life, I find myself sometimes writing people like, hey, people that I know that own businesses are trying to support them.
I find myself sometimes writing them like, hey, how long is the shipping on this?
I didn’t even ask them how they were doing, because I’m just so used to doing it the way here, where they just ask directly for what you are, you don’t waste time with the small talk.
It’s interesting having to sometimes notice that I’ve taken on certain things that at first I used to think was really rude and now I feel like it’s straight to the point.
That is interesting because you always talk about words slipping in, you might say blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and then a German word pops out and you’re like, oh, now I’m speaking English.

Lindsay:
So you’re saying that the cultural side of things is also, you find yourself sometimes like, oh, no, wrong, not just wrong language, wrong culture?

Shahidah:

That’s a good way of putting it because I don’t have that happen at work as an American.
If you make a mistake, you fixed it.
It’s that simple.
It’s like, oh, I did this by mistake, fixed it.
And they’re not.
It’s very like… It’s like, no, you cannot do that.
Why can’t I just change this?
Because in this and this, I’m like, because we have to charge the customer and it’s like, you don’t have to.
Why is it so complicated to fix a mistake?
So then I get buried for trying to fix the mistake more than I get buried for the mistake.
Do you understand the bigger picture before you start trying to change everything around?
Do you understand what are the non-humble parts in this picture?
I didn’t used to be like that.
It’s really interesting because I never would have thought, like I said, I’ve become one of those people.
You’ve got your own warring can now.

Lindsay:
How do you think, is it easy to think back to when you first arrived at the start of that six-year stint?
Can you remember what it was like back then?
You’re saying you adopted these little elements of the culture yourself.
What was it like then?
Was it like we’ve talked about going to it with an open mind and stuff, but was there frustration when things didn’t happen in the way you might have expected?

Shahidah:

There were a number of things I saw that I was just like What?
So for instance, I think the very first thing I saw that was like, what?
Okay, so here in Germany they call like rap, hip-hop, R&B, they call it black music.
When I first got here, I’d see the posters like Black Music Night at such-and-such club.
What was that supposed to mean?
I don’t understand.
I remember asking a drummer person like, why is that called Black Music?
They were like, oh, because Black people make it.
I’m like, that’s where they say, you know that?
You can’t do that.
You know what it used to be called here?
It used to be called Urban Music.
I just remember that was the first thing that really shocked me.
I was like, you see a picture of Dr. Dre and whoever rapper and then it’ll say black music, I’m like, what?
I just was just so outdone by that.
Another thing, there are several things that I saw and I was just kind of like, I realized that, you know, Black people are an extreme minority here, like we’re less than 1% of the population, so there’s a lot of things that happen, purely, that are said, purely out of ignorance, because they don’t
have the same, like in the US, we have the history of slavery, we have the history of Jim Crow, the Civil Rights Movement, like we have a lot of history And here they don’t really have a small history of Black survivors of the Holocaust and stuff like that, but they don’t really have.
You know what I mean?
Anything to that scale.
So you’ll see things and you’re just like, how is that?
Who will approve this?
I want to know who on the product management side approved this?
Do you think we’re talking over 10 years?
Do you think that that’s changed in that time?
I mean, you have in your time in Germany, but you think that there’s also this change of culture during that time?
Or is it just that you now notice it and are aware?
I feel like there is a shift, like I see for instance more inclusive advertising, right?
I see like they’ll be like, because before it would just be, they would take American commercials with Black people and dub it.
But I’m starting to see more commercials of actually Black people from here in commercials talking and speaking, which I think is really great.
And then I also see like They have ads of employment ads, but they’re looking for people, and they have black people on there.
Or like Zalando, who Zalando also has ads.
They actually even have a department.
They have a headhunter specifically for that to recruit diverse candidates, and they have a DEI in the actual company.
And they have partnership with one of the local associations for Africa and something I don’t know, and I think that’s like a pool of diverse candidates for them as well.
And so I do see it changing, but I do have to admit, while they’re trying to change, when you see the comments under certain things on social media, it’s like They’re trying to change, but it’s almost like they’re in a hamster wheel running, but they’re not going anywhere.
It’s like they’re trying to push forward, but then you see these really racist comments.
I think Solando had an ad with a black model.
I mean, that’s normal.
She was wearing clothes and then it’s like a little tagline and then the wait to go shop.
And it was like all these very negative comments, like, you know, is this supposed to be?
I think this is the wrong region.
This is supposed to be for Zolando Africa, you know?
And then just people talking about They don’t understand why everybody’s woke and why they want to include black people for.
It’s just really mind-blowing.
I do see organizations trying to be inclusive and change and make that change, but then there’s really a lot of you be surprised.
There’s so many people They don’t want to see a black person in a commercial and add that’s not.
I think when they take the ads over from the US and dub it, it’s one thing they don’t have a problem because it’s like, oh they’re from the US, but I think they have problem and they see people home grown from here.
It’s crazy and then you’ll see certain people on TV It’s not a problem as long as it’s just them and nobody else.
Don’t start adding more people.
It’s a lot of stuff that I’ve seen but I do have to admit I do see the change.
A lot of people are like, yes, even at my job they sent out a diversity and recruiting survey for them to understand if we see them as a diverse recruiter.
Do they present as a diverse recruiter when we chose to apply or what can they work on?
And, you know, that’s all I can say about that.
I can’t really say much, but I’m just saying there is change.
It’s just, it’s really sad that you see like individual people like really fighting against it.

Lindsay:
Don’t you think the internet would be a different place if you had to pay to comment?

Shahidah:

I think it would be a different place if you had to register with your correct information It is easy for me to create an account with somebody else’s picture and say all kinds of stuff.

Lindsay:
It’s interesting actually that we’ve got to talk about this because in decultural communication, once you then go to the internet and it can be anyone from anywhere in the same space, then it’s almost like the rules are still being made of how we communicate online because everyone’s there.
When it’s a written comment, you lose stuff there when it’s not spoken.
If you’re in Germany and someone speaking to you and they say,
Move your bag, please.
Move your bag, please.
Move your bag, please.
Move your bag, please.
Move your bag, please.
You’ve got the tone, you’ve got the face, you’ve got everything.
As soon as you go online and you lose those elements and it’s just written, it becomes so much harder to distinguish those extra layers beyond the words.

Shahidah:
Who gets the time and headspace and energy to get that stressed out over an advert or a character in a TV show anyway?
Who is thinking?
This is my top priority for the day.
You didn’t even brush your teeth, you just woke up and started ranting about this today.
You know, still in bed, you don’t even say, oh, the sun’s out, birds chirping, you don’t even say that.
I’m offended by this and I’m angry about this and I’m just like, why?
I mean, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying there are not things to be offended about or whatever, but I’m just saying, I just think it’s horrible when that’s your North Star, to wake up in the morning and complain about things that are so So, so fervently, so ardently just there.
And people, I just don’t understand it, don’t want to understand it.

Lindsay:
No, that’s, that’s also true.

Shahidah:

And then also that’s another thing I’ve noticed.
Like, I’ve noticed that you had kind of, sometimes you have to kind of take things the grain of salt with people here because I feel like sometimes I get the feeling people like to complain here.
And I think in the US… I don’t think Americans complain and just on a general level, I don’t really hear people complaining, it’s mostly storytelling, but they will complain when it comes to customer service because everybody has that idea that, oh, if I can complain, I can get something free,
right?
So I think in that respect, we probably complain a whole lot more, but just on a day-to-day, I think in general Americans or not, we don’t make a big deal.
Everything’s pretty much like, somebody bumps into me and they’re like, oh, I’m sorry, it’s okay, no big deal, it’s not a big deal.
I can do it again, do you need me to do it again so that you can be even more mad?
I bumped into you as an accident, I said, my mistake is an accident and you’re still here upset.
That’s one of the things I noticed here and I don’t know if that’s a cultural thing because it’s like, for instance, and when I say complain, I don’t know if it’s a cultural thing that they encourage to say, hey, you don’t like something, eat doesn’t matter how little.
That’s something I’m still trying to figure out.
But, for instance, on Sundays you can’t make noise.
You’re not supposed to be doing anything that makes noise, right?
It’s the rest day.
If you go outside trying to drill, they can legally call the police on you.

Lindsay:

No homeschooling, no drilling on a Sunday.

Shahidah:

No noise on a Sunday.
You can’t be out there doing work.
So I know my landlord, he’s a police officer and I guess he was doing something trying to prep the apartment for me and I guess he was making noise and the neighbors threatened to call the police on him.
He is the police, so later I didn’t call the police on police.
I just thought that was the heights of complaining, like to me.

Lindsay:
Okay, that’s real interesting.

Shahidah:

Another thing that I had experienced in a previous place, not here for God, not in this city, but it’s another place I think it was like in Heidelberg somewhere.
Actually, I think I was in Schwanford.
We experienced the neighbors going through our trash and complaining because we didn’t know about the recycling thing and stuff at first.
In the states we didn’t really have that and now we do but still not as robust as it is here.
I think we were still throwing our trash away if we were in the US because that was what we were thinking what we were supposed to do and I think one of the neighbors was like Do you think that it’s
Like, I always say, you never finish learning a language, there’s always new words to learn, there’s always new slang, mid-appears etc etc.

Lindsay:
Do you think that this is the same?
That there’s always something that is going to come up when you’re like, “but why? I don’t get it!”?

Shahidah:

Absolutely, because it even happens with our own culture.
Like, you know, we have, we have US culture and then we have like the regional things, like people who want the East Coast, people who want the West Coast, people who do down south, people who do in Texas, people who do in Louisiana, whatever.
So we have that, things we do, we say, and those things evolve over time.
Like for instance, you know, back then, you know, I don’t remember whatever this was, but I remember you used to call people a job turkey.
Like that was something you call somebody a new job turkey.
Like you don’t say that now, but I’m just saying if that’s something like for instance, you’re starting to learn the English language at this time.
And as time is evolving, And now they’re calling you, you know, they’re calling you, you know, I don’t know, I’m trying to think of something.
Like, I remember they used to say back in the day, at least black slang.
I know they used to call people a herb, like when they were like lame.
And it’s like, okay, so if you learn that.

Lindsay:
You say herb, you pronounce the H?!

Shahidah:

We don’t, but for that word, we used to say like, you a herb.
We normally say herb with no age sound, but for that we used to say you were herb.
And so, if you’re learning that around that time when people are using it and then people, you know, child turkey, so now that’s slowly phasing out and people are slowly saying other things.
It’s continuing like nowadays, I don’t know what they call somebody, they call them, I don’t know what they call them, I can’t think of nothing off the top of my head, but there’s so many things in morphs over time, the words.
So I think it’s a continual process of course, even for me, because they may be saying, I don’t even know if they still say this anymore, but I remember at one time they used to be like, that’s a dub.
If you don’t like something, or you’re not going to do something, you’re not going to get something, so you’d be like, I’m dubbing that, and then that’s a dub.
And so I don’t know if they still say that, so please don’t quote me on that, because I’ve been in Germany for like four years, so I don’t really know what they’re still saying.
I say that to say, whatever it is they’re saying now, I, as an American, need to learn that, I need to know that.
So for you to be learning a foreign language, you’re going to have to continually, because things change, pop culture, influence the language.
It’s just one long lifetime of almost continually trying to catch up If you think about it, a life without language is going to be the same.
You’re going to continually always feel like you’re trying to catch up because the thing is we don’t know where this living life is.
All we can do is learn lessons as they come along and if we’re smart enough learn other people’s lessons so that we don’t have to learn them.
But we’re constantly in a state of I didn’t realize you had to register your car every year.

Lindsay:
That’s such a valid point.
And I think to kind of end that,
Despite perhaps some of the frustrations or confusions or things that you experience as you go along this journey, especially living abroad, why is it worth it? What makes it worth it after all that?

Shahidah:

I think it makes it worth it because I think that it only helps you understand yourself and where you come from more because it’s easy to just take things for granted and do things.
But when you understand why people do things differently than you, then you can self reflect and say, well, why do we do it this way?
Where does that come from?
And then, you know, I feel like, and that’s one of the things I see with the current, I don’t want to say only the current generation, but you know, right now, I see a lot of people questioning things out saying, hey, I notice people are doing it this way.
So why were we doing it this way?
This doesn’t make sense.
There is a lot of that and I think it’s quite exciting when there’s kind of gradually more and more people that are in that position to question those sort of perhaps traditional expectation life paths and the more that we can… I don’t mean question in a critical way but just pause and go, hmm,
but why?

Lindsay:
This is what I’ve learned today from each other.
Just curiously ask why.
That’s the real core, I think, of all of this.
It’s not a bad thing.
I always thought critical was like, oh, that’s bad, it’s just mental and everything, but I just, the way that you use the word critical here, it makes me really think about it and I’m just like, it’s not bad.

Shahidah:

It’s just important that you need to know.
And the other thing that I wanted to say was just to also not only just Keep in mind that people are learning languages from different regions, right?
So for instance, that adds another layer of complexity to it because not only are, like for instance, they learn British English here.
So not only are we having the cultural, we have two different cultural viewpoints even though we’re speaking the same language, but then they’re also using British terms, like for instance I thought about it earlier when you were saying biscuits, right?
So now for me it’s like if you say biscuits, I understand what you mean cookies because we say cookies, right?

Lindsay:
I get that.

Shahidah:
But like if I’m talking to someone who doesn’t speak English as a second language and they’re telling me about biscuits, I’m thinking they’re talking about the biscuits that I know because I wouldn’t think English, or British, English, or whatever.
I’m pretty sure if I go, I’ve had that experience.
I went to Switzerland and I was like the German I learned is almost like I didn’t even learn German because what they’re speaking is different.
So, like for instance, I went to a chicken place and I was trying to tell them what chicken pieces I wanted.
I was trying to tell them I wanted actual chicken, not chicken strips, right?
And I was saying henchintyla because in German it’s chicken piece, like the pieces of chicken.
So I was saying henchintyla and they were looking at me cross-eyed, like henchintyla, like, you know, and I’m saying, you know, fluego, you know, all the other stuff.
And they’re just like not getting here.
And then my friend’s like, what are you talking about?
And I said, I’m trying to tell them I want the pieces, the henchintyla.
And she’s like, oh, So obviously there’s that layer of I’m speaking German-German with a person who’s speaking that dialect of German in that Swiss region.
Pule, that’s so interesting, so I didn’t realise that Swiss German took from French so directly.
It’s just that area because she lives in Basel and it’s like the border of France and Germany.
Some places be French, some places be German, some places even speak Italian.
Sometimes they are Swiss German.
It’s like another language.
A whole other thing to learn, but as we’ve said, that’s the joy of life, the whole purpose of life and human experience.

Lindsay:

Shahidah, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today.
If people are listening and they want to learn more about you, follow what you’re up to, where is the best place to do that?

Shahidah:

So, Instagram, black girl story languages, you can follow me.
I’m on Facebook, so I have a public page, not as active, but I do post some things, so it’s the facebook.com slash black girls and languages.
I also have a private group, but it is a safe space for black women, so you do have to be a black woman to be a part of that group.
So that one is the BGLL hyphen forum, and you just, you know, can join that group, answer the questions.
Other than that, there’s the website www.blackgirlslearninglinguages.co, not .com.
Everybody always puts the dot com.
It does redirect, but it’s really dot co. And then there’s also Twitter, but I’m not on Twitter that much.
Black Linguista, so I’ll go in there every once in a while, but really I’m on Facebook, Instagram, and I try to update the website often.

Lindsay:

Thank you so much!

Shahidah:

Thank you!

Lindsay:

Bye!