You don’t often get to hear people talk honestly about changing their mind about how to learn languages. That’s why you’ll love this conversation with Álvaro of Natural Languages.

Before we begin…

Choose how you want to enjoy this episode – video with subtitles, podcast on the go, or read the blog version below.

The Video

The Podcast

Changing Your Mind about How to Learn Languages with Álvaro Heras

In this episode, you’ll hear Álvaro discuss…

• his thoughts on comprehensible input & why it helps language learners
• his experience learning Polish in Poland
• his honesty about changing his mind on how to learn languages
• plus his opinion on talking out loud – aka why a Solo Speaking Habit is so important!

Links from this Conversation

Álvaro interviewing me about learning Spanish: https://youtu.be/lpNw7SitWnY?si=__c9bsf8lg8aa23L

Transcript

Lindsay:

Hello welcome back to how to learn a language this is another interview episode in the series And this time I am speaking with Alvaro of Natural Languages.
Now I spoke, I was interviewed by Alvaro back at the end of 2024 so you can head over to his YouTube channel to watch that, to hear that conversation.
We had a really nice chat and after I said okay I need to, you know, return this favour, let’s do this the other way around, I want to hear your experience of learning a language and how you do it.
And a lot of Alvaro’s early experience of learning solo was around comprehensible input and like really kind of learning that and discovering that and then applying it as he then learned Polish in Poland but something that I love about this conversation is how honest he is about changing his mind on
how to learn languages and realizing that isn’t necessarily the only way and it’s something that we don’t often get to hear a lot of the time We hear these perspectives on how we learn languages from one side or the other and it’s very rare that we get to hear someone who has changed their mind
on actually there being a bit of a multitude of ways that we learn and ways that we need to apply.
And we also talk about talking out loud, solo speaking, you have it, you’ve heard me say these words endless times.

So it was great as well to hear Alvaro talk about that on his own terms and what that looks like for him as well.
So I think you’re really going to enjoy this one.
I’m going to leave you to it and hand over to the interview now.
And yeah, enjoy.
Hello, Alvaro, thank you for joining me.

Álvaro:

Hi Lindsay, it’s a pleasure to be here.

Lindsay:

Hey, excellent.
We spoke recently at the time of recording very recently and your episode went live very quickly.
For me, I think by the time people hear this, it will be a lot further in the future.
But yeah, I do want to start by just pointing out that if people haven’t heard yet, there is an episode of you interviewing me over on your YouTube channel for your podcast.
So definitely I will pop that in the link or that pop that link in the description rather get the words in the right order.
Um, but yeah, today I want to talk about you and your approach to language learning.
Cause last time when we spoke on your, um, on your YouTube channel was very, you know, we talked a lot about me and things that I’ve experienced and my approach.

And so I want to hear your side of the story as well and what it’s been like for you.
So yeah, fill me in on your kind of first language encounters and like, you know, where you came from, what languages were around you when you grew up, all of that.
Let’s start at the very beginning of the story.

Álvaro:

Perfect.
Like episode one.

Lindsay:

Episode one.

Álvaro:

Perfect.
So, so I’m, I mean, I’m a native Spanish speaker, right.
And from Spain.
So I had English in like school, like primary school, high school, like throughout the whole education system.
And that was around 15 years of English and I could pass pretty much any grammar exam, but I just couldn’t speak the language.

Sound familiar?

Lindsay:

Was it just English in school for you?

Álvaro:

It was mostly English, a bit of French.
But I mean, my point is it was all taught the traditional way, like a lot of grammar exercises and so on.
So like I said, mostly English, but a bit of French.
And I have to say that my mom, she’s now retired, but she used to be a French teacher.
And she has friends in France, so we used to go there every summer for a week or so.
But I was just recently recalling that experience.
And I remember just learning things here and there because there were no kids around me at that time.

So I was with adults all the time.
So I learned like, you know, did you sleep well?

Lindsay:
Yeah.

Álvaro:
How are you doing?
Things like that.

Lindsay:

Adults that presumably are speaking in French?

Álvaro:
Exactly.

I got things, but it wasn’t comprehensible for me.
But I’d say that my first encounter was with English, like I said.
And again, I could pass exams by studying and so on, but I just couldn’t speak the language.
I vividly remember that.
And it wasn’t until, I mean, I didn’t realize at the time, but When I was 19, 20 or so, I started watching the NBA, like American basketball in English.
And I did it because I loved it.
You know, I sort of had the hope that it was going to help me out, but it was mainly because I liked it.

Lindsay:

Right.

Álvaro:
And after a few years doing so, I moved to Poland for the first time on Erasmus university program.
Like for non-Europeans, is this a program to study for a year abroad in another European country, right?
So I came to Poland and obviously Paul is spoken here, but glasses are there.

Lindsay:

Did you pick Poland?
Was it given to you?

Álvaro:

Good question.
I mean, I’m from a small town in Spain, so a small university as well.
So I only had a couple of Dutch cities to choose from, this one in Poland and a couple more in France, but that was in France and I didn’t speak French at the time.
I mean, not good enough to be able to understand.

Lindsay:

And you’d been, right?
So the camping, it was boring compared to somewhere new, I guess.

Álvaro:

Yeah, but I mean my point is that I had those choices in the Netherlands and this one in Poland and actually I remember I had to list them in order and then depending on how many people requested it I was given Poland, let’s put it that way.

Lindsay:

A semi-choice.

Álvaro:

Exactly.
And like I said, classes were in English.
I had a lot of international friends.
English was the language we used to communicate.
I’m just trying to imagine if that was in Polish.
My goodness.
And so that was the first time I had to use English or a foreign language, English in this case, like all the time.

And I remember actually being able to communicate as opposed to over my Spanish friends, for example, who had the same kind of experience I had in school, but didn’t have the, you know, the MBA part that I talked about.
And I didn’t realize at the time, but like a couple of years later, You know, I always felt like I had a passion for languages because we all relate language learning with the school experience.
This wasn’t fun at all and to be honest it wasn’t working either, right?
So I don’t know, it’s just like later I realized that I love them but I so I started like researching a lot on how languages are actually acquired and things like that and I came across Stephen Krashen and Compressible Input Theories And that was like that was a game changer for me because I started
to understand why work with English with me afterwards, right?
What I didn’t work in school.
And so that was the moment actually.

So I quit my job.
I started working on my project of teaching languages.
I mean, teaching Spanish online, YouTube channel and everything.
And yeah.
And then from then I started learning other languages in the same way, like based on comprehensible input, you know, just listening and reading.
Resources that I could understand.
That’s the main idea.

If you understand what you’re listening to or reading, you’re learning the language.
We’ll get into the second part of that later because recently I’ve been putting more emphasis on the speaking part because I believe that’s missing a little bit in comprehensible input theories and so on.
But that was a great breakthrough for me because I understood how the language mechanism works, if you will, and I started relearning French, Italian, Portuguese, because those were a little easier for me because I’m a native Spanish speaker and they’re related.
I started from scratch, not with French, it was Italian Portuguese.
I started from scratch, but not really because I’m a native Spanish speaker, you know what I mean?
If you start from scratch with a language like Mandarin, you need someone to specifically create content for you or a teacher, things like that.
But with Italian Portuguese, I could start watching cartoons, simple things like that and understand.

So that’s a bit of the, my language learning story in general.
We can get to the specifics in a moment.

Lindsay:
So let me get this straight.
So English, a bit of French early on exposure, but not really learning.
Then Polish only when you moved to Poland.

Álvaro:
Correct.

Lindsay:
And then.
After that, would you say after the Polish, when it was like, Oh, I can do this thing on my own.

It doesn’t have to be like school.
Is that kind of realization of them thinking, “Oh, let me try French again, some Italian, some Portuguese.”?

Álvaro:

I forgot about this little part because when I moved to Poland, like I said, my first year that university program, everything was in English.
So I just learned like a few words in Polish, like, you know, how to order a beer, the curse words, you know, most important stuff.
But it wasn’t until then I came back to Poland again.
So I came back to Spain to finish my studies and then back to Poland.
Then I had a traditional course in Polish and that was the moment I started to realize that there’s something not working here because again it was like traditional way like grammar exercises memorizing things like that but for a native Spanish speaker with English, French You can kind of get away
with it because they’re similar or a lot of words you can understand things like that with polish Which is a completely different language.
I mean, it’s still European, right?

But would you compare it with when you compare it with Spanish?

Slavic, not romance.

Exactly, exactly.
Like different grammar points, cases, masculine, feminine, neutral, things like that, that I started to realize, like, wait a moment, because we weren’t learning those things like consciously, like any traditional course, right?
So I started thinking like, okay, so if I’m walking down the street, I want to talk to someone and I need to think, okay, so this specific word has this specific function in this sentence, so I need to use this case.
If the word is masculine, feminine or neutral, I need to change the ending.
So I was like, what?
By the time I come out with the right answer, you know, the other person is gone.

A bit of a baptism as a fire going from a Romance languages and English to be fair to then Polish.

Lindsay:
I remember German for me was my first introduction to cases and it was like, what?
Excuse me, what?
I do not comprehend what you are trying.
I just didn’t get it.
And it took another student who thankfully lived locally.
Everything we said in your episode, everything I did was distance learning part-time, but thankfully someone was local.

And we met up once and I said, I just don’t get this case thing.
And she explained it to me in plain English, you know, not in textbook, grammar jargon.
And I was like, Oh, okay.
I see.
But then, you know, four cases, yes, masculine, feminine, neuter, but then Polish, there’s a lot more to deal with, right?
Than just four.

Álvaro:

That’s really going in.
That was the moment I realized that I wasn’t going to learn that language the traditional way.
Because it’s so different, so much new information to check in.
But the main point was what I just told you.
There’s no way I can think of the right answer in real time.
So this can be the way.
So that’s what got me into research a little more, right?

Because with Polish, it’s difficult for me to say what to tell me.
I mean, now I know.
But at that point, I started learning Polish with those classes.

I guess in the beginning you were there for a year right and you thought it would just be a year on the Erasmus so that changes your perspective as well and that changes the way you approach a language if you’re thinking this I’m gonna live here for like nine years you’re gonna approach it
differently too if you’re thinking it’s just a year Of course.

Speaker_01 – 14:56
Yeah, of course.
I mean, actually, so actually I was going to be there for a year, like you said, and I didn’t actually try to learn the language that year because everything was in English, university classes, conversations with international friends, even with local people, you know, you know, just like little
markets, things like that.
You know, you just learn the basics and that’s all you need.

Lindsay:

So what made you go back?

Álvaro:

So I mean, I love the experience, first of all, the country and everything.
So I, after I came back to Spain, finish my studies, I came back to Poland with a scholarship for like an internship.
So it was actually a scholarship from my hometown, what’s it called, like city hall.
So it was a scholarship for like a four, three, four month internship at a company here.
And the first three weeks before starting the internship was an intensive policy course.
Remember that was like 60 hours in three weeks.
Yeah.

So it was, it was four hours a day.
Yeah.
Monday to Friday.
Exactly.
60 hours.

Lindsay:

How was that?

Álvaro:

I mean, actually, I remember that I came here with three more people, three girls from my city.
So it was the four of us.
And I had a little background in Polish because of my year, right?
For them it was starting from scratch, complete scratch.
So, I mean, I was, I couldn’t understand more than they could, but I mean, we did some cool things like watching things, but mostly it was, like I said, grammar and things like that.
So, I mean, that was intense, but that was the experience that made me realize that this can be the way to learn languages, you know, like what we’re all used to, like learning grammar consciously, grammar exercises, memorizing words and things like that.

Lindsay:

So after those 60 hours, How did you feel?
How much did you feel that you knew?

Álvaro:

Good question.
So I don’t like that approach.
I don’t think it’s really helpful, but I’m not saying that it’s completely useless.
So you do learn things, right?
But, you know, I would start using what I learned, but it was pretty simple, you know, like things like, how are you doing?
I’m from Spain.
I’m, you know, I’m learning Polish, but my Polish is not good.

You know, like the moment the conversation would turn, you know, would go a little more complicated.
I’d be, I’d be, I’d be lost.
Yeah.

Lindsay:

I have a question for you then.
Do you think that 60 hours, could you have learned what you came out of that with in less time?

Álvaro:

Yeah, probably.
Because I’m trying to remember that experience.

Lindsay:

Because the way you’re describing it, like, hi, how are you?
I’m from Spain.
That is very much You know, lesson one, lesson two of most courses, right?
I feel like you can do that kind of stuff without 60 hours.
Like, was it 60 hours of like, here’s some new Polish, here’s some new information to remember, cram, or was it like, we’re going to revise, we’re going to go over this, we’re going to practice again?

Álvaro:

There was a bit of everything, but they were trying to put some more policies into it all the time.
The main thing for me is that the fact that you’re learning new things doesn’t mean that you’re going to be able to use them, to apply them.
That’s one of the breakthroughs for me.
We can talk about many things, but I remember being able to say that because now that I’m thinking about it, we probably practice that.
At the beginning so you know they would teach us like you know different tenses and grammar points but probably I’m trying to remember because I was like 10 years ago 11 so
Probably we practice how to say that, how to actually say that.
Like I’m from Spain, you know, I’m learning Polish, things like that.

So that stuck a little more.
But adding language or grammar points on top of the previous one, you know, I was in contact with it, but that doesn’t mean that I’m going to be able to use it.

Lindsay:

Right.

Álvaro:
Every time you add a new layer, you started by practicing the first layer, the second layer, the third layer.
So by the time you get to the new layer, like this stuff is solid because you’ve done it a million times, but the newer stuff just doesn’t get as much.
And also a lot of those early words are the things that you use the most.
If you’re being, you know, if a course is good, you are going to use things like hello and thank you all of the time.
So they are going to be solid a lot quicker, but yeah.

Lindsay:
Yeah, I know, I can really identify with what you’re saying of like, you think, okay, I’m going to add something new now, but you start with practicing the old stuff again, you know, it’s, it’s funny.

Álvaro:

Right.
Yeah.
And then it’s, so you’re, you’re putting like grammar rules or whatever it is on top.
Like that’s the new language you’re getting exposed to, but that doesn’t mean that’s the way we acquire the language.
It’s a bit of a artificial way to learn it.
If you ask me.
Like, what I mean is, you know, I don’t know, everyone’s favorite tense in Spanish, for example, or in romance languages is subjunctive, right?

Because it’s difficult for most people to learn that, they try to consciously learn it, but that doesn’t mean you’re going to be able to apply it.
Like I said, that’s one of the breakthroughs for me.
Learning a specific part of the language doesn’t mean that then you’re going to be able to use them.
So what comprehensive input theories taught me is that, like I said, we learn the language by listening and reading.
We’ll get to the second part later.
We’ll get to the output part because I’ve changed my mind in that sense.
But if you don’t listen to the language and read the language, like comprehensible resources of course, because you need to understand it otherwise it’s just nice, right?

If you don’t do that, it’s like the language is not getting in your head, to use simple words.
You can learn the rules consciously, but the language is not in your head yet.
You can memorize things and repeat them like a parrot, but the moment you deviate from those topics that I talked about, I’m lost.
Because I haven’t heard the expressions that I want to use yet, so how am I going to come up with them?
And I feel like I could do that with Italian and Portuguese because the structure is pretty similar, even worse, so I could use a little bit of portuniol there or things like that.
I can get away with it, but when the language is different, Like, I don’t know how to say it.
Even if I’ve been in contact with the rules, language is not in my head.

So, you know, I can’t come up with that or I need, like I said, five minutes to think about it.
And that’d be awkward in the conversation, right?

Lindsay:

Right.

Álvaro:
Yeah, exactly.
You know, you’re in this social exchange.
You would hope that people would help you out if you look stuck.
But at the same time, not everyone is choosing to assign themselves that role of helper or teacher.
You know, I’m wondering how Long after, or maybe during the 60 hour intensive Polish, did you think, you know what, this isn’t quite working for me.
I need to do some research.

I need to find something else.

Lindsay:

Uh huh.

Álvaro:

So it.
First of all, before I answer the question, I want to say that what I just said, have you realized, for example, when people speak in a foreign language, a lot of people have that sort of hesitant style with a lot of pauses?
They’re trying to access that conscious knowledge, but the language is not in their head yet.
So they need to think about what they want to say.
So that’s what it leads to.
I just want to point it out.
I’m trying to remember the experience.

I don’t think it happened at that moment.
So I started to how to put it into words.
So during those 60 hours, I started to think about it like, this is going to be tough this way.
But then it took me like a couple extra years to start getting into research mode.
It wasn’t that like I did it right away.

Lindsay:

So what happened in those years?
How was your polish?
Did it improve?
Were you learning in other ways?

Álvaro:

So I did improve a little bit.
Like I said, it’s not like it’s completely useless.
I don’t want to say that, but it’s just not the best way, in my opinion.
So I started using it in those situations that I just talked about.
Then I had a Polish girlfriend.
We communicated in English but with her family they didn’t speak English so I was exposed to the language.
It wasn’t easy at the beginning but that was real exposure to the language.

And in those situations they do adjust a little bit because the first time they don’t.
And when they realize that some of your answers don’t make sense you know because sometimes you’re like yeah but sometimes the question doesn’t require a yes as an answer so you’re like okay so you know in their heads they’re like okay he didn’t get it so they started to adjust you know so
that was i was in contact with the language in real situations and that was helping me a little bit, you know.
But the thing about police, for example, as opposed to learning Spanish in Spain or English in England or United States, you know, just an example, is that in Spain, except for Madrid, Barcelona, if you don’t speak Spanish, you’re going to have a hard time communicating.
Here is different, like you don’t really need to speak Polish.
In fact, I know a lot of people have been living here for quite a while and they don’t speak, you know, besides simple stuff like I said.
You don’t really need it.

You know, if you know how to buy things, supermarket and basic things, you’re good because especially young people, but most people can communicate in English to some extent.
So you don’t really need it.
So, you know, I was hoping to get better, but it was going slow.
Sometimes I felt like, oh, I’m never going to learn this language because it was so different.
You know, it was just little by little.
I wanted to learn the language, but I knew it was going to take me a long time.
But it was actually like my last year of being in an office job that I hated it so much that I actually, when I had some free time, I started to realize that I was looking for ways to learn languages.

So that was like a hint for me like you say you say languages so not necessarily polish yeah like a wide curiosity yeah like language like understanding how to learn languages right Because police was the experience, the real experience, but I felt like I could enjoy that.
I’m trying to remember what I felt, but it didn’t happen overnight, like a long process, but it was a combination of hitting my job, And, you know, realizing that whenever I had some free time, I was like researching, like, how do you learn languages?
What’s the best way to learn languages?
And I remember watching a ton of YouTube videos.

Lindsay:

And everything conflicts.

Álvaro:

Once you really go down that online rabbit hole a bit, like, oh, Yeah, you’ve got people telling you that you can start speaking from week one, like hacks and tricks and things like that.
Yeah, it’s difficult to, so when you have no idea, when you’ve been exposed to one way of learning languages your whole life, Which is the way most people try to learn languages, to be precise.
First of all, there’s no alternative in your mind.
Then you start consuming content.
I remember watching some videos in which people talked about how to learn the language in a month, things like that.
And that’s so dangerous for me because
Like, I mean, to me, that’s impossible now to learn a language in a month.

I’m just using month as an example, but in a really short time.
But it’s dangerous because when you’re trying to understand how it works, you’re not really an expert, let’s put it that way.
When someone’s telling you to do this and that, to learn a language in a month, then you go apply and it’s not working.
It’s not, and it’s not working because it’s just impossible to learn a language in a month.
Not because there’s something wrong with you, but you look at your failure and the fact that it’s supposed to be working for them.
Like what’s, what’s the variable, you know, what’s, what’s left there.
What’s, what’s the difference.

It must be me, right?
That’s why a lot of people think that there’s no type of languages, that it’s never going to work for them.
And I understand it.
It’s how it makes you feel.
So that’s why also I am super passionate about languages, but I’m kind of obsessed with understanding how it works and communicating it in a real way, like being real about it’s going to take you years, not months.
Like I said, being real about it, being honest.

Lindsay:

You’ve articulated that so well.
I talk about this a lot in terms of, I mean, YouTube and the internet really is very much an extension and in some ways I really like that you use the word dangerous.
I think that’s quite appropriate.
In some ways more dangerous than what we might think of.
I always talk about it in terms of the cover of a course book using words like quick and easy and simple, complete.
No insert thing you hate from school here, right?
No textbook, no grammar.

That’s a big one.
No grammar.
And that has the same effect when you then think, oh, well, the book says, this is everything I need.
This is complete.
The book says, this is quick and easy.
The book says, you know, I don’t need any grammar.
Okay, well, let’s, let’s go.

Oh, it didn’t work.
Oh, I’m the variable.
I must be the problem.
And it really sucks.
Like, you know, there is, there is no one method.
There is no one system or way or like hack, whatever you want to call it that works across the board for everyone.
The only thing that works is exactly what you’re saying, learning how to learn for yourself so that you know, and you can apply like, Oh, actually Hang on, let’s be, let’s be quite like neutral about this and not judge myself in the sense of that worked for that person.

But I know the type of person I am, the type of learner I am, how much time I have, whatever the variable, I know that that’s not going to work for me.
No guilt, no shame.
I can move on with my life.
You know, how did you, how did you avoid getting stuck in that place?
Cause I think that is a place that a lot of people get stuck in.

Álvaro:

Like I said, the combination of realizing that I really wanted to understand it and that I hated my job made me persevere a little longer.
I don’t know how to explain it.
So I came across Stephen Krashen’s theories, comprehensible input and I think this part is very important because I do believe in overall principles that are going to help but When I came across his theories, I quit my job and started my project, but before I started it, I went to a couple of
workshops in France.
There’s an American teacher who lives in France and she started a workshop or conference for language teachers from all over the world who understand language teaching this way.
Like I said, comprehensible input, so listening and reading is the most important.
When it’s comprehensible, like I said.

So that helped me understand how to teach the language, Spanish in this case, right, but any language in general.
And I think this is important because when I started that process, Because that was such a breakthrough for me.
It was like, oh, now I understand how it works.
I was like all in on comprehensive input, like all input, both for myself as a language student and my students.
So to give you an example, with Italian, in my case, I started watching cartoons, like I said, because thanks to the similarities between Spanish and Italian, I couldn’t understand them.
I started watching cartoons, then other cartoons or cartoons for older kids, like documentaries.
So I was like building my way up that way.

Then I actually like this is normally not the case if you’re learning a foreign language but because Italian and Spanish are similar after three four months I couldn’t understand series in Italian but not original series.
What I would do is watch American series dubbed into Italian.
It’s easier right?
Little tip.
Like little tip if you’re learning Another language like French, Italian, like I did.
Instead of watching original series, original movies, which I understand the desire to do so, but it’s not comprehensible at the beginning.
So what I did was, and you can do this on Netflix and, you know, like change the audio and things like that.

American movies dubbed into Italian, this case.
So what I did is listen to the language for a long time without even attempting to communicate so all input right and because I couldn’t understand more and more and the language was starting to get in my head I was like oh this is working I’m gonna do it with Portuguese I’m gonna do it with French

Lindsay:

That was my question because I was thinking what made comprehensible inputs stick for you as a concept, rather than everything else that you’ve seen on YouTube that felt like in a month, that’s not for me or whatever.
Like, was it the fact that it was working?
It felt like it was working.

Álvaro:

First of all, it made me think of my journey with English.
So that was the moment I started thinking, so it was the MBA, actually, because I watched it for years without attempting to communicate because I was just listening.
It was pure input.
So it was like, oh, so that was it, right?
And then with Italian, I mean, once again, it was faster than with other languages because of the similarities, but you know, four months in, I could understand series in Italian, I was like, whoa.
Portuguese, French, you know, and I even started, I mean not started, but I started applying it to Polish and started reading comic books and things like that.
So one, it was working from the understanding point of view, from the input point of view.

Two, I really enjoyed the process, which is also a change because I remember not enjoying grammar classes in school.
So that was another pointer, another thing that told me that, okay, this is working because I was learning those languages while enjoying every single minute of it.
I was just watching videos and reading comic books and things like that.
And but recently, which comes the second part that I told you about before, I realized because the theory tells you that by getting comprehensible input, one day you’re going to be able to actually communicate.
But recently I realized that it’s not that easy, let’s put it that way.
But I want to be clear that I do believe comprehensively put this key in the process and you need that.
But it’s not enough.

That’s what I’ve realized recently.
Doing that is going to get the language in your head.
It’s going to start the process of being able to communicate because the language is in your head, but you do need practice.
That’s the part I was missing, to be honest, as a teacher and a student myself.
Again, Italian, Portuguese, even French.
You can fool yourself a little bit, just like I did with English before, because of the similarities.
But with Polish, Because with Polish, after all the years and applying comprehensible input to it, I got to a point where I could understand a lot of things.

Like right now, I can understand like native, I can understand 90, I’m making it up, but 95, 96% of Polish, like I understand native podcast.
That’s not the issue.
The issue is communicating.
And I started learning German three years ago and same thing, I’ve gotten to a point in which I can understand so much and I started from scratch.
I started with YouTube channels, you know, from teachers, content creators who use comprehensible input principles to teach the language, like creating stories, but in a way that is comprehensible, like using gestures, drawing, things like that.
So I’ve gotten my German to a point in which, again, I can understand native podcasts, not all of them, but I can understand a lot.
I was in Berlin in June, I couldn’t understand native speakers, but I realized that Like our ability to understand is always going to be ahead of our ability to communicate.

That’s normal.
But the gap was like too large.
Polish and German specifically, because like I say, Italian, French, Portuguese, and everything.
I don’t communicate at that level at all, but I can communicate fairly well.
But Polish and German, like I said, the gap was just two letters, because my understanding is really high, but the speaking is not there.
It’s not that it’s not there at all.
In Polish, I can communicate, but I feel the frustration of not being able to say what I want to say a lot of times.

Lindsay:

How does that mismatch of skill, ability affect your confidence in saying I’m fluent in Polish, I can speak Polish?
Do you like the word fluent?
Do you use it?

Álvaro:

So I like where I’m at because, again, if I go back to 10 years ago, wow, like this is something which I thought I was never going to learn.

Lindsay:

And how do you how do you refer back to that point?
Is it just pure memory?
Do you have any kind of records?

Álvaro:

You mean of the, okay, so not with Polish.
You mean like if I’ve documented the journey in terms of… Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay:

Or is it just you feel it?

Álvaro:

Right.
So not with Polish, because like I said, with Polish, I started before I got into, when I came across Comprehensible Input, started my project and so on.
So it’s really hard to tell because there’s like English.
Because I did that intensive course that I told you about.
I had real life experiences.
So it’s really hard to measure it.
But with Italian and German now I did.

Like documenting, like, okay, so I’m watching an hour video, write it down.
The time is taking me, right?
And so to give you an example with German, I’ve been listening to German for around 1200-1300 hours.
YouTube videos, reading and so on.
This is my ability to understand but this is my ability to communicate.
I was going to say something that I’m sure most people can relate to.
After 600-700 hours of listening to German, It’s like the language was starting to get in my head so I would start to build sentences in my head or imagine conversations in the language but the way you Picture them in your head.

Actually, I remember the first time I tried to speak German, like it was so difficult to pronounce for me, like all those sounds, like in my head it was clear, right?
But then I said, I was like, wow.
So, you know, little things like that got me thinking like, maybe practice necessary, you know?

It’s the physicality of it.
The feel of a language in your mouth, like you talked a bit about Portuguese, even though it is not my strongest language in terms of how much I understand, how many words I know, et cetera, et cetera.
But I love to speak it because it feels nice.
Do you know what I mean?

I mean, it’s my favorite language.
So yeah, it’s so weird.

It’s so weird.
I can’t describe it other than that, but equally.
I’ve found there have been some languages that almost don’t fit in my mouth because I haven’t, it all comes down.
It’s not to say they never would or could it’s because I’ve not had the practice.
And that’s what you’re talking about.
So what do things look like now for you with accepting that?
Yes, maybe it isn’t a case of one or the other.

Input versus output, you know, it’s actually, A combination of everything in terms of comprehensible input.
I presume there’s still stuff happening.
You’re still listening.
You’re still reading stuff.

Lindsay:
How did you incorporate more of that practice and the speaking and writing, if that is a part of it for you as well?

Álvaro:

Perfect.
Yes, before I answer the question what you said that you haven’t practiced it yet.
And also, you know, the nature of certain languages and your own native language, you’re going to have like, I don’t know, for example, those sounds in French, they don’t come natural.
I don’t know.
But Italian is not a problem when it comes to pronunciation, for example, for me, so it’s going to change.

Lindsay:

I can’t roll my Rs in Spanish.
Things like that, for example.
Doesn’t mean I can’t speak Spanish.

Álvaro:

Exactly.
So, you know, depending on your native language, the languages you’re learning.
Again, Polish, for example, there’s a lot of difficult things about that language, but I don’t think pronunciation is one of them.
Or there’s some things that are hard to pronounce, but it’s a lot like Spanish in the sense of This is the way it’s pronounced every time.
It’s not like English or French, that sometimes you don’t know how to pronounce things.
Because you have a rule in your head, but then there’s a word that breaks that rule.
I know, with English, when you have two O’s in a row, like spoon, floor, things like that, but then you have blood.

Things like that.
In Spanish you read it the way you say it, if that makes sense.
So with Polish, there are some things that are pronounced differently, but they’re pronounced that different way every time.
But practice, like you said.
So after I realized that I was missing the practice part, what I’m doing now with German is practicing out loud to myself.
So I’ve been listening to the language for quite a while, like I said, and I feel like the language is in my head.
But again, imagining conversations in my head is very different from actually using the language.

And it’s not just pronunciation that we were talking about, but also being able to recall those things.
And let alone if that’s a conversation with a real human, that there’s more pressure.
But a few months ago I started talking to myself like about, I don’t know, like for example I’m listening to a podcast so summarizing what I just listen to or talking about what I’m doing or talking about what I like or sometimes you know I’m cooking so I’m okay so I’m gonna grab the onions chop
them things like that in the language out loud I actually thought it was gonna be weird but first of all I’ve realized that it really helps me with pronunciation that we talked about because you’re actually using the language for the first time then I’m really enjoying it because I’ve been listening
to the language for quite a long time, the language is there So I’m quite capable of using the language when I’m doing that myself because there’s no pressure.
That’s another added value, right?
There’s not anyone judging you or so you’re by yourself entirely.

So if there’s something I don’t know how to say, I just think of another way of saying it.
There’s no pressure.
But there’s something about realizing that you can actually use the language, that the process is working, right?
It’s encouraging because like I said, I’m gonna go grab the onion.
So it’s like I’m narrating my life and I do it for a few minutes a day, especially at the beginning because, you know, You’re starting with that process.
It takes a lot of mental toll, if you will.
It’s taxing mentally.

I’ve enjoyed it a lot and it’s really satisfying, as it were.
Because you realize that you can actually use the language.
So things like that.
I’m thinking about when to start communicating with actual humans.
I’m not just talking to myself at all.
Because obviously that’s the next step.

That’s one of the problems is if you go from just simple to the real world, You know, it’s too much of a transition, right?
Because you go from comfortably sitting on your couch and listening to the language to having to use it with natives or non-natives, but in real time when you don’t have time to think about it, with the pressure of feeling judged, that’s in our head most of the time.
But yeah, it’s a higher pressure situation than just talking to yourself.
So I feel like it’s a nice stepping stone when it comes to bridging the gap between just input and the real world.
Because it starts the process of output in a comfortable situation.

Lindsay:

Yeah, solo speaking habit, I think we spoke about this in the episode on your show.

Álvaro:
Yeah, it is.
It’s list of keywords that may occur during the meeting.
Without doing it, you know, we can just go out and speak and it’ll be fine.
And it might be fine, but it could be better.

Yeah, then there are personal differences as well.
Like there are people that don’t care and they start speaking to other people and they, I mean, probably they do care to some extent, but not as much as other people.
Some people just say whatever they can say and they don’t care or they don’t care as much about being wrong or not using it right or things like that.
Whereas others, and I would include myself in the second group, are more conscious about that.
So going straight to the real world might be a bit of a shocking experience.
Like I said, I feel like this is a really nice stepping stone but since this is the first year or the first time that I’m using these ideas I’ll keep talking about it the moment I start communicating with real humans in German because that’s the experiment I’m doing.
Because there’s another thing about English is when I came across comprehensive input theories and I reflected back on my journey learning through watching the MBA.

So that was the most important thing.
But because I was so thrilled, I was so into this theory, it’s almost as if you want to fit your experience into this theory to see that it works.
What I mean is in my head, that was the only thing.
I was listening to English for a couple of hours every day, so that helped me.
I forgot and I remember recently that after a couple of years of doing that, the few opportunities that I got to use English in my hometown, because I’m from a small town in Spain so not a lot of chances, I remember that there was a Nigerian guy in my city that I would come across like at night in
several clubs when partying.
I would start talking to him and we would talk for a while and obviously that’s the combination of having drank a little bit of alcohol so that’s you know you’re not worried about mistakes that that’s another topic But recently I remember that I was actually using the language before I moved to Poland for the first time, because in my mind, my first year in Poland was the first time I had to use the language.
So I went from just listening in my head, from just listening to being able to use the language.
But I forgot those in between experiences with this guy on, you know, And obviously, my first year in Poland, I could use the language.
I mean, I could communicate in English, but there was still a lot of room for improvement.
So using it got me better as well.

Lindsay:

Absolutely.

Álvaro:

It’s like the input part was the foundation, right?
But then using it, it’s what builds the entire building.
That makes sense.

Lindsay:

It makes like complete sense.
I really get it.
And I’m thinking as well, I know when I spoke to you, I said that for me, Spanish started with Shakira, but it’s only on reflection in recent years when I’ve realized, well, actually there was a lot That happened before Shakira like mostly in terms of music right like I have this playlist of songs
I’m like it’s called probably why I learn languages and it’s stuff like Macarena it’s stuff like right it’s like Live in La Vida Loca the Spice Girls they have that song Spice Up Your Life where it’s all like all these little odd like they’re mostly just names of dances You know, like flamenco,
lambada and all of, and it’s like, Oh, all of these little sprinklings that happened, you know, and you kind of forget about it.
You don’t think of it as significant until you see years later, looking back and see the full picture, like probably how you found with the Nigerian guy in your town of like, you didn’t think anything of it until, Oh, that was, that was a start point.

Álvaro:

Yes, and it’s hard to know what’s actually helping, especially with, in your case with Spanish or in my case with English, especially with English because we’re surrounded by it.
So we’re getting exposed to the language and you don’t really know if this is helping me or not.
You know, it’s that’s why I’m documenting my journey with German because It’s easier for me to know what’s working because that’s the only German, that’s my only exposure to German.
I live in Poland, so I’m not… With English, you can’t count everything.

Lindsay:

With Polish, if you live in there.
With English, true as well.
You can’t count everything because English is just… I think, I mean, I can’t speak from personal experience, but I think different to learning any other language as a foreign language.
English is just… has a different global presence.

Álvaro:

Exactly, but even Spanish for you, like you said, now Spanish speaking music is really popular.
So much easier.
So you might be listening to a lot of songs and you’re not thinking about, oh, this is helping me.
But later, to your living hindsight, you’re like, oh, okay, right.

You’re like, oh, I just recited that whole song word for word.
Wait a minute.
That’s in another language.
I did a thing.
Absolutely.

But that was probably for me, like I’m exposed to it the whole time, but especially at the beginning, the language was around me all the time, but it was nice at the beginning.
So it wasn’t really helping me just a little bit.
So it’s hard to measure how much it’s helping you.

Lindsay:

Definitely.
Do you have any final words before we wrap up?
Anything we haven’t mentioned that you’re like, “we need to talk about this, this is really key.”?

Álvaro:

Hmm.
So, I mean, like I said, I feel like there’s some principles that can be helpful to most people.
Like when I talked about like comprehensible input, Yeah, for me it’s hard to imagine learning the language without it.
Like just consciously learning the language, grammar and things like that and trying to use it.
But I’ve even changed my mind a little bit when it comes to grammar, a little bit of it, like consciously studying it, right?
Because Again, I used to be pretty radical, like no grammar at all.

Lindsay:

It’s those YouTube videos.
They radicalized you.

Álvaro:

Yeah.
I still don’t use it myself because I just don’t enjoy it at all.
So I rather watch videos for longer, even if it takes me longer.
Because I enjoy that way more than studying it but you know I’m okay if people want to learn specific things consciously or grammar points.
I’m okay if that’s not the focus point your language journey, right?
But I’d say enjoying the process is just key to me like because You can be the most motivated person on earth but if you’re not enjoying the process sooner or later you’re gonna end up giving up.
I mean that was my experience because I’m from a person who’s really passionate about languages I felt like giving up so many times.

Lindsay:

Yeah, I get it.
Don’t give up.
Just take a little break, take a breather and you’ll find that kindle of motivation.

Álvaro:

Yeah, but you know, when you feel like you’re not getting anywhere, not that you’re not getting anywhere, that’s not the right word, but that you’re not improving.
You’re walking on a treadmill.
Yeah.
Sometimes you feel like, what the hell am I doing here?
But because learning the language this way, you know, makes me enjoy it.
I’m like, OK. So I look into what I can do better.
But this is helping, even if not as much as I’d like to at times.

But because I’m enjoying it, I’m willing to keep doing it because I like it.
In German, now that I can understand native podcasts, it’s pretty much what I would be doing in my own native language.
So, you know, it’s enjoyable.

Lindsay:

Alvaro, I want to thank you for being so honest and for being brave enough essentially to admit you know what I’ve changed my mind on some things like that I think is really huge and it’s very difficult for us to do.
So thank you for that.
Thank you for sharing your story across various different languages and different experiences with them all.
Where can people listening or watching find out more about you?

Álvaro:

So what my pleasure first of all it’s it was nice to be interviewed because I’m usually on the other side so it’s like oh nice right that’s what I wanted to ask you yeah but yeah I’d say you know you can go to my youtube channel natural languages where I started posting stories and conversations to
teach Spanish through comprehensive input on my channel, but then I realized that helping people understand how the language process works, it’s really what most people need.
So I started a podcast interviewing people trying to understand it myself, how the language process works.
So yeah, that’s my channel, Natural Languages.
And recently I studied Natural Spanish, which is the channel in which I just share stories, games, things like that to learn Spanish in a more relaxed way through comprehensible input.
So that’s recent, but I’d say Natural Languages is the main channel.

Lindsay:

Brilliant.
Well, thank you so much.
And I will pop those links in the description of this episode.
So do go and have a look at that and yeah.
Alvaro, thank you for joining me.
And I’m sure we’ll speak again very soon.

Álvaro:

Yeah.
Thank you.
It was a pleasure.
Like I said, thank you.

Lindsay:

Bye.