We all want to know how to speak any language confidently with flow. But it doesn’t always come easy. That’s where Thea May comes in.

Before we begin…

Choose how you want to enjoy this episode – video with subtitles, podcast on the go, or read the blog version below.

The Video

The Podcast

How To Speak Any Language Confidently With Flow with Thea May

I first met Thea May at a business event back in 2022 and was really inspired by her work as a Communications Coach, especially given how there’s so much overlap between her work and what we as language learners need to consider to speak more confidently.

In our conversation, Thea shares lots of wisdom, including…

• Her perspectives on flow, fluency and confidence, including confidence being a result of flow
• The What How Strategy to lead you to better conversations
• Thea’s experience in Lyon & how quickly she learnt French through intentional immersion
• What observing her toddler learn English teaches us about ourselves as language learners
• The 3 Communication Centres: Head, heart, gut, and how to tap into each of them

Links from this Conversation

Thea’s website: https://www.workingwithvoice.com/

If you love what Thea has to say (which I think you will), it’s worth checking out her event The Changemakers Reset, happening on 17th January 2025.

Thea’s event, The Changemakers Reset: https://bit.ly/49p2mAJ_reset

Transcript

Lindsay:

Hello welcome back to how to learn a language.
I am very excited because I have a little handful of interview episodes that I want to share with you and the first in this series is with a friend of mine Thea May.
Now Thea is a speaking flow and confidence coach and communication coach.
All of that good stuff that is so connected to us as language learners especially when it comes to speaking which is one of the things that We often have such trouble with so this is such a great conversation we talk all about speaking flow and fluency and confidence and what those different terms
mean from Thea’s perspective.
We talk about confidence actually being a result of flow which is really interesting take on the whole thing and then some the what how strategy right so The questions to ask to get the answers that are going to keep that flow ticking over even when you don’t have what you would call fluency in the
language.

We talk about Thea’s experience in Lyon and how she quickly learned French through intentional immersion and what observing her toddler learning English teaches us about ourselves as language learners as well.
There’s lots more that we get into.
I think you’re really going to enjoy this one because I really learned a lot myself having this conversation and If you’re interested and you want to learn more with Thea, she’s hosting an event called the Changemakers Reset on the 17th of January, so I highly would recommend signing up for that if
this is something that you enjoy and you’re interested in and if speaking confidently is something that you want to work on in 2025. All right, I will hand over now to our conversation and enjoy.
Thea, hello, welcome.

Thea:

Hi, Lindsay.
Hi, thanks for having me.

Lindsay:

Thank you for joining me.
I’m so happy to have you here and have the chance to talk because so much, I mean, we’ve known each other for just over two years, I think now.

Thea:

Yeah, two or three years.
Yeah.

Lindsay:

So much of your work, even though you’re not in like language learning is so relevant to The work that I do and the people that I work with that I just, you know, when I saw that you were looking for podcasts for 2020, I was like, yes, Thea, let’s go.
Let’s make this work.
But before we get started, I do just want to say that my internet where I currently am, as we’ve been testing.
A little bit weak so I’m going to put video off but we’ll both put video off for this one and this will be an audio episode.
We’ll come back at the end and hopefully still be connected to be able to say au revoir and say goodbye.
So I’ll pop my video off now and we can get into our conversation.
So Thea, for those people listening who maybe you are a new person for them, how would you like to introduce yourself?

Thea:

How would I like to introduce myself?
I would love people to know that I’m a communication coach, but I specialise in speaking flow in relation to what you are passionate about.
And the reason why those two intersect is because When you are passionate about something you will get past yourself and find your own flow in your speaking, in your writing, in your doing and flow is an experience just as speaking is an experience and when they join together magic happens, charisma
happens and I have made my life’s work around helping people find their own flow in speaking.

Lindsay:

I love it because when we’re talking about language learning So much of what I hear about the biggest difficulty people have is essentially that it’s yeah you know and it boils down to the way that it’s often described is I know lots of words I’ve studied loads but when it comes to the moment when
it comes to speaking I just can’t do it.
Right.
I freeze.
I don’t know the words.
I forget everything.
So many variations on what it is, but it boils down to not being able to speak and then not feeling fluent, not feeling that, you know, the language feeling then, you know, if it begins to then spiral down into those sort of negative self feelings of like, I’m, I’m ashamed and I’ve failed and I’m not good at this, et cetera, et cetera, which obviously isn’t then a very productive place to keep going and to keep learning languages.
So.
This is really the heart of one of the biggest problems and one of the things that I say a lot is that fluency is A lot about confidence, right?
It’s not about how many words you know.
It’s not about how deeply you understand the grammar.
It’s about how confident you are with using it.
But there’s something on your website that I wanted to talk about with you.

And that is this, this is what you say.
Great communication is not about confidence.
It’s about flow.
So I just wondered if you could explain what you mean by that, how you define confidence, how you define flow and why that might be different and how that might work for language learners.

Thea:

I love that you picked up on that on my website and I, it’s a phrase that I just said all the time and then, and then, um, I realised that that’s quite different to what people think.
And it just is what I believe that, that confidence is a result.
Flow is a state and so if you put flow before confidence rather than trying to achieve confidence which is often a pushing from a place of pushing if you don’t feel confident in it already you’re pushing yourself to fake it till you make it right And so confidence then becomes a threshold you’re
trying to push yourself past.
It’s like just be more confident, just do confidence.
But actually if you put confidence in the place of a result and then focus on what can you do that gives you a positive experience in this moment, and that’s where flow comes in, then confidence becomes the outcome, not the intention.

Lindsay:
It’s such a distinction.

Thea:

It’s such a distinction.
For me, it feels like you’re putting confidence in its rightful and also compassionate place.
You’re not forcing yourself to be confident, you become confident because you did something that made you feel good.

Lindsay:

Yeah, yeah.
And the flow is what makes you feel good.

The flow is what makes you feel confident.

Thea:

Exactly.
Flow is all about positive emotion.
It requires positive emotion and a stretch for you to access it.
You can’t access flow without a certain level of skill.
So you have enough to get started.
That doesn’t mean you have to be fluent.
It means that you have, if you’ve got no language whatsoever, then communicating with somebody in German might be quite difficult if they have no English at all, for example, for my own language, English.

If I have nothing at all, I can fumble through, but I’m not probably not going to get that far.
But if I’ve got some level of skill, I’m going to stretch myself to have a conversation and the flow will come in because you’re focusing on relationship.
All speaking happens in relationship.
So if the goal is to connect, And then you have flow around connecting.
Connecting becomes the positive experience.
Confidence becomes the result of connecting, irrespective of how good your grammar was.

Lindsay:

I was going to say, so flow then isn’t about, I know X number of words.
I know, you know, the grammar at this level or whatever.
It’s more about the, it’s, is it, is it a, is it like, A sort of case by case, you know, you could feel really good flow in one conversation in one situation and then with someone else, if that relationship isn’t at that point of it feeling good, then the flow is a bit trickier.

Thea:

Yeah, I would say that it is probably a case by case basis, but what you that kind of puts it outside of your area of control, which can be frustrating where you can bring it back into your area of control is what how can I connect with this person?
What connection points might we have?
Are we both traveling at the same time?
Are we a similar age?
Do we have a similar background?
Do we like the same kind of music?
You can connect on any aspect.

Maybe you just notice that they have a vibrant personality.
Maybe that’s where you connect on the sort of vibrancy that you each have or on the more kind of quietness that each of you have.
You notice that there’s somebody who’s not at the front of the party and you’re like, I’m going to go and sit with them.
They seem like my kind of person.
You know, so it’s choosing points of connection rather than points, ways to prove your language.

Lindsay:

Okay.
Yeah.
This makes sense because if you found that connection point, then I would, I would say Hopefully the person you’re communicating with is more likely to be patient with you if they feel that same connection point, right?
If they recognize it too.

Thea:

Exactly.
Relationship is everything.
So in a past life of mine, I used to coach accent softening and I worked exclusively with non-native speakers of English and they were all pretty good, if not excellent linguists.
They had language, they had incredible Understanding, they understood complex concepts, you know, they had language in the bag, but they felt crippled with shame at how they felt misunderstood.
They weren’t representing themselves.
You talked in one of your recent podcasts about, how did you phrase it, the creating a positive image in others minds.
So it’s the perception of how you are perceived and that for non-native speakers of a language, I think is one of the greatest thresholds.

It’s the fear that you won’t come across as you know you can come across in your mother tongue.
Right?
Yeah.
And it’s a big deal.
I speak French.
I don’t speak French as fluently as I speak in English, but I speak pretty good French.
Is it rusty?

Yeah.
Do I notice it when I speak it now because I don’t use it regularly?
Yes, do I feel a sense of embarrassment?
Totally.
But what gets me across the threshold is playing with myself in French, kind of embodying myself in French.
How can I find ways to express who I am in French?
You know, it’s like almost picking up on some of the colloquialisms.

So I’m moving away from formal language into relational language.
And having some of those in the bag Helps me connect better, as me.
And when I worked with my clients, I’d often say, you’ve got language, now focus on relationship.
And what you said earlier about the other person will be more willing to be patient.
It’s more than patience.
They will be more willing to fill in the gaps, build the bridges, find the words for you, lean in to what you’re saying, spend more time with you.
There’s a social currency that kicks in.

That then, because flow is based on positive emotion, the more you feel connected, the more positive emotion you have, the more you flow, thus leading to a positive experience and another notch on the stick for your confidence track.
Confidence is an accumulation of positive experiences around something you want to feel more confident in.

Lindsay:

Yes.
I feel like we need to find those, like intentionally find those relationships as well.

Thea:

Yeah.

Lindsay:

Because you know, so much of language practice can happen in quite essentially service-based interactions, right?
Especially, let’s take travel as an example.
You arrive, you go to the immigration booth.
That person is there to do a job.
They’re not there to be your language practice partner.
You then go to get a taxi.
They’re also there to serve and to do a job.

You then go to the restaurant and the hotel.
All of those people are doing a job.
If you get any language practice out of those interactions, that’s the bonus, right?
Maybe the exception would be if you’re in the taxi.
Once you’re in the taxi and you’ve established the price and then you’re on the journey, you might have a bit of a conversation.
That can be quite a good environment.
You know, you’re looking, I think, like you say, you’re looking for those commonalities, building that relationship on what you have in common to help them flow.

And then they’re going to help you fill in the blanks.
And it’s funny actually, because filling in the blanks, it’s like, We put so much emphasis on ourselves to do that work.
Actually, if I think about it, when I speak to someone who doesn’t speak my language in my language, I’m helping them.
I’m willingly filling in the blanks for them when they need it, when they want it.

Thea:

Exactly, and people love to help.

Lindsay:

They love to help.
Absolutely.

Thea:

It aids the feeling of connection and literally every single one of us is knocking around the planet going, I just want to feel more connected to others.
And so we’re all look, we’re all seeking that.
We all have that desire to feel connected, you know, and I wanted to pick up on something that you said there.
It’s gone.
It’s gone.
I’ll come back to it.
I want to bring in a phrase, which is a terrible name for a beautiful thing.

Got a lot of scientists, they come up with very rational names.
It’s called the emotional contagion.
And it’s a theory, proven theory, that is that the vibe that you bring to an interaction, whether you’re In a one-to-one, in a group situation, on stage, because I help a lot of people speak on stage.
The vibe that you bring to that interaction, that relational moment, is what they will be infected with.
So you’re infecting the collective vibe with your individual vibe.
And this matters so much.
I really think this comes into play when you’re speaking outside of your own language, your own mother tongue, because the anxiety and fear and shame responses that can kick in of not, I’m not enough, I’m not good enough.

If that’s the vibe you’re bringing to the interaction, that’s what will infect the relational dynamic.
I’m not good enough.
And then frankly, they might go, yeah, they’re all right, but they weren’t that great.
That’s what you infect their perception of you with.

Lindsay:

It’s like a job interview.
If you go into a job interview thinking, I have not got this job.
I’m not qualified.
They’re going to agree with you.
Even if you don’t say it directly, they’ll sense it.

It’s the same thing here, right?

Lindsay:

Yeah, and it’s emotional contagion.
It’s a proven thing.
It’s literally science.
And I think it’s a really powerful thing to anchor yourself into.
If your desire is to connect around something, just have a positive experience.
In the words of Maya Angelou, they will not remember what you say, they will remember how you make them feel.
Make someone feel good.

Show interest and curiosity in them.
If that’s the only thing you do, you don’t talk about yourself much.
You just find out about them.
They’re going to go away going, they are such a cool, interesting person.
Even though you didn’t even have to do that much work in your language, but you experienced loads of conversational language.

Lindsay:

Yeah.
It’s funny.
A lot of.
Language resources will teach you how to talk about yourself first, almost like this monologue of my name is Lindsay, I am X years old, I live in town X, I like X, I don’t like X. But actually it should be the other way, you know, the asking comes second.

But that’s how to have a great conversation.

Yeah, you know, asking what do you do, where do you live, what do you like, that is the stuff maybe we should be learning first.

Thea:

Absolutely, it reminds me of a strategy I often teach people which is the what-how technique.
If you were to rely on two questions only, start every single question with what-how.
Two question format, sorry.
Don’t go with a why, it’s too personal.
And so you have the relational currency build up, asking why can be like a bit too private.
Yeah to ask people’s reasons behind things and where often takes you to a closed answer.
So yeah what and how just get used to practicing and having in the in the in the bag a load of what how questions because then you will get really interesting conversations.

Lindsay:

I love this as well because One of the biggest things that I come across in terms of the thing that people struggle with the most with language learning is speaking in particular the fear of speaking another language and I feel like if you know this is one way that you can build up That practice is
by asking what, how questions, letting other people respond and listening to those responses, kind of building up your own answers to those questions from listening to other people’s responses first, you know, and taking the pressure off you.
You don’t have to speak a monologue to be able to speak from a language.
You can simply ask those questions.
And then listen in and pay attention and like you say… And it does so much for your language absorption.

Thea:

Yeah, for your language absorption.
I learnt my French at school.
Many people learn a language, all of us learn a language in school in the UK.
I learnt French.
I didn’t do very well at school, interestingly.
And now I’m probably more fluent than most of the people who I learnt it at school with.
And I learnt it, absorbing it.

Thea:

I did Erasmus when I was at university and Lyon was my town.
And I was there for four and a half months and I came back fluent.
I went there with school French, not very fluent at all.
And I came back fluent.
And it took me four and a half months, actually it only took me about six weeks to be honest with you, six weeks of immersion and what I did was I just asked questions and I talked to people following that what and how strategy and then I would cut and paste the verbs of sentence structures for the
action that I wanted or the noun that I needed.
You know, I sort of did a sort of almost like a scrapbook version of learning a language and my grammar is still not incredible but I can hold fantastic nuanced complex conversations with people.

Lindsay:

Yeah, but Thea, can you explain the grammar of the English language?

Thea:
No, I really cannot.
You just don’t have to have that level, that kind of understanding.
You just need to understand the use What is fluency and for which context?
Are you wanting to work in this language in a formal setting?
You might have to up your grammar.
Are you wanting to have conversations with people in other languages?

You’ve got a lot of flexibility on what you can get away with in a conversation socially.

Lindsay:

Hmm.

Thea:

It doesn’t have to be perfect, but it can still feel fluent.

Lindsay:

Yeah.

Thea:
And then just use Google translate for the rest.

Lindsay:

So that’s actually a good point.
When you talk about flow, if we put that into a language context, Would using Google Translate, for example, would that take away from flow in your interpretation or is that part of it?
Does that keep the flow moving?

Thea:

It’s a really interesting question.
I’m going to shift it sideways a little bit into my current relationship with AI like Jack GBT.
So I am a speaking flow coach.
It’s kind of my bag.
Communication is my thing.
And so I’m like, I can’t use chat GPT to write any of my content that undermines my integrity.
And then I was like, but does it, how could I use it in a way where I still keep my integrity and my engagement with what I’m saying and my flow?

Right.
And, um, it’s really about the, The source of the desire to communicate.
So what is it that you want to express?
What is it that you want to understand?
I think in one of your, you talk about following the spark and the spark of joy is also so essential for flow.
So follow your own interest in curiosity and be the source point for something and allow it to be based on a positive emotion.
Where is your curiosity taking you to?

So when I use ChatGPT to write something I have already emotionally connected with what I want to write about and then it means that when I get stuff back I can feel where it’s going off piste for me because I’m connected to it already.
I’ve chosen to engage my soul essentially, my spirit, my personality through curiosity and joy.
And then, so if you’re going to use Google Translate, allow yourself to find a way to connect with what you’re translating.

Lindsay:

Hmm.
So have maybe an idea in your mind of what you think it might churn out.
That sounds a bit derogatory towards Google Translate.
I didn’t mean it to.
It’s a very good tool!

Thea:

I don’t think it has feelings.

Lindsay:

Yeah, true.
You know, have a think, an idea perhaps of what you think will be the translation or, you know, just, just something so that when you then see it, you’ve got a bit of an idea and you can determine if it feels like that’s what I want to say.
If it feels like it’s not quite translated it.
Exactly as you wanted.
And I think as well, a part of being able to use a tool like that confidently and still maintaining flow is having a sense of alternative ways to say things that sometimes We get really hung up on wanting to be very specific.
And when we’re speaking another language, that’s not always possible.
We’re having to kind of, it’s like you hit the brick wall.

How do we work around the brick wall of what we can’t say?
You know, we need some synonyms, some antonyms, a simpler way to say it, whatever it might be is our workaround.
And using Google Translate sometimes is a bit like that.
Like you type something in and then you realise, oh, actually Let’s say it’s, it uses the word light and you know, there’s multiple different meanings of that word and Google translate has taken the meaning that you don’t want.
And so you need to then think of another way to say it, to enter it, to give it the information to then give you a response that you want.
So it’s kind of, yeah, the same kind of thing as you were saying with chat GPT of like just having a feel for what you expect, an idea of another way you might want to say it.
So that you can keep moving forward.

I think as well, there’s something to be said for when it does translate badly.
That can be quite funny.
That could help with the relationship building too.

Thea:

Absolutely.
I totally agree.
Yeah.
I mean, we’ve all read the badly translated menus somewhere.
And you’re just like, that is so wrong.
I know what it means.
But it’s so wrong!

I want to come back into this piece around translating and synonyms because I have a toddler so he’s learning language I’m literally in real time watching a brain absorb language it’s super cool And every day he chucks out new words.
I didn’t even know you knew that word.
And, um, but sometimes he gets stuck and it’s like, can you tell me in another way?
Can you show me in another way?
I don’t, I don’t understand what you’re saying.
Sometimes it’s pronunciation thing that I can’t, can’t get past with him because he hasn’t quite got those consonants yet.
You know, he’s only two and a half or it’s a word he doesn’t have.

And he’s trying to communicate something to me that he doesn’t have the words for.
If that isn’t language learning, I don’t know what is, you know, it’s an experience we can all relate to.
And so I encourage him to show me in another way.
Can you show me with your body?
Sometimes a synonym can be a body thing, right?
So he will use sounds as sounds and actions as synonyms for what he’s trying to communicate to me.
Yeah, I love that.

Lindsay:

I love that.

Thea:
So he might go, for example, he wanted to, what was it he wanted to do?
And he didn’t know the word for it.
It’s an odd example, but I’m going to say it anyway.
He wanted to use the loo brush because he’s obsessed with cleaning the toilet at the moment.
So he wanted to use the loo brush.
That’s good.

Speaker_00 – 27:07
Keep that obsession going.
I know, right?
But he doesn’t know the word loo.
Toilet brush, right?
He doesn’t know that word.
So he calls it the ch-ch-ch and he does the action and he’s showing me what his meaning is.
And I think when you’re in, um, Out of your mother tongue conversations you can use your body so much.

The hardest format obviously is on the phone but even then you can still use onomatopoeic sounds, sounds that show The thing that you’re trying to describe, you know, I just want to like, oh, I just like, like hit it.

Lindsay:
Yeah.

Thea:
And sometimes that’s what will bring your, the word to your brain, because rather than getting stuck at the, that sort of like spasm that happens in the brain when you’re like, I can’t find the word.
I’m so ashamed.
By moving yourself into another way of finding the word, sometimes the board just go, just pops into your brain.
You know, or you don’t get the word, but the meaning is transmitted.
So it’s not getting stuck on having the exact quotation marks words that you think you should have in that moment.

It’s being flexible and responsive enough and dynamic enough in your, in your communication to be like, I’m going to find another way around this.
I haven’t got the word I need, but I’m in an interesting complex conversation that’s taken me off my vocab, my vocabulary that I have.

Lindsay:

Hmm.

Thea:

It’s a really good quality conversation but I need to find other ways to communicate.

Lindsay:

This is so true and I do this a lot myself and I think it makes people laugh.
It’s another Again, another relationship builder, right?
Because if you sort of say, oh, and then the box arrived, the door, ding dong, like, okay, so yes, I want to arrive to the door with the box.
Got it, right?
You just work with what you have and you keep moving forward and there’s a mixture.
One of my least favorite questions and I get it a lot for obvious reasons is how many languages do you speak?
How many languages do you know?

It’s so hard to answer that question because they’re all different levels What does it mean to know a language?
What does it mean to speak a language like, oh, just impossible to answer.
And there are even with languages where I am not massively word fluent or vocab fluent.
Like I don’t have a big vocab.
My grammar is very simple.
There are some that I feel really, I would, I’m going to call it flow.
I really feel a flow in because of how I feel.

Feel when I speak that language and there are others that feel a little stiffer that maybe I do feel fearful to speak because I don’t it feels clunky And like I said just to touch on that fear one more time, something else that I’ve noticed on your website is about the three communication centres
and I’m wondering how we can connect this to language learning and speaking in another language too.
So I wonder if you can talk a bit about that because I feel like that’s something that might help, that might help me at least and I’m sure people listening with those times when things feel a bit clunky.

Thea:

The concept of the three communication centres is about whole and embodied communication.
So, so often, much of our communication is delivered purely from the head, especially if you’re working outside of your own language, you’re going to be Overdriving on vocab searching in your brain, right?
And in a way it can kind of disembody you, especially if you’re anxious about having the right word, the right grammar.
Fear will so often jump us into the perfectionism or the desire to get it right state in our bodies.
And that state really sits in the head for communication.
You’re now heady, as it were, right?
And What’s beautiful about the three centres of communication which are the gut, the heart and the head, the head is really important, but without the gut and the heart your communication lacks an embodied integrity and a flexibility.

So if we put language accuracy and concepts and the sort of thinking of them, Languages into the head.
We then put the relationship connection, love for the culture, love for the language, the desire to be in another country, traveling, working outside of our primary language into our heart.
And that is an embodied experience of love and joy.
And it’s something that you can, again, emotionally contagion, transmit, right?
And then the gut is the real action and doing.
It’s what powers the body.
So when we were talking about using your body to transmit meaning, that would be driven by the gut intelligence.

There are three different intelligences essentially.
And if we use them in conversations, we have a more nuanced, more embodied and more flexible Which is another word for fluent, really, experience in our communication.
Right?

Lindsay:
Yeah.
Yeah, it’s very easy to just focus on the head.

Thea:
Very easy.
Oh God, it’s the place of comfort for, I would argue, all of Western society.

Yeah it’s where we’ve taken our society to is a disembodied head state of data points proof and accuracy rather than intuition, body, flow.
I’m just saying.
Is it an equal balance between the three or ideally at least?
It’s not necessarily the way to think about it.
It’s a dynamic, constant state of moving between them.
Some interactions and conversations will require more of a head presence, require more of a heart presence.
So if you are in a technical conversation, your head is probably going to be doing the legwork For the lack of a non-head metaphor towards that conversation flowing.

Whereas if you’re in a perhaps a more vulnerable conversation about what led to you going traveling in the first place, or perhaps you’re sharing some life experiences, your heart’s going to be doing the bulk of that communication intelligence, right?
So it’s not about Having an equal balance in every conversation, it’s having a congruent and relevant balance in relation to that conversation, that context that you’re in.
Hmm, okay, nice.

Lindsay:

Can you remind me of gut again?
I’m trying to distinguish between gut and heart a little bit more.

Thea:

Mm-hmm.
Sorry, heart would be your feeling centre.
It’s your joy and love.
Empathy.
So it really is the not soft in a weak way, soft in a emotional, intelligent way of relating.
It’s softer, not so driven onto accuracy.
It’s more sensing.

And then the gut intelligence is really driven into action.
What do you want to do in this moment?
What do you want to Achieve.
What do you want to change by having this conversation?
What outcomes do you want from traveling?
And then your gut intelligence acts as an anchor for those qualities.
And it also is where your animation comes from.

So often we will come to life in our body when our gut intelligence is awake.

Lindsay:

You maybe answered my next question there when you said you’ve come to life in your body.
I’m thinking how it would look in terms of the way we express ourselves differently when we’re sort of coming primarily from one of these different communication centres.
Is it that? There’s necessarily less words with gut or heart or is it just that there’s more emphasis on the feeling and that can be expressed by words but it’s expressed in other ways too?

This is a bit of a flimsy question, I apologise.
Thinking out loud.

Thea:
No, and I understand why it’s a complicated, nuanced thing to ask questions into because it is very nuanced and it’s, they’re not three boxes in our body that are clearly defined and completely separate.
That’s not even how they function.
You are a Whole body and there are these intelligent senses literally made of neurons so it’s not just this is not a woo-woo energetic concept this is a biological physiological proven theory that we have gut heart and head brains in our bodies.
And so they each hold a different intelligence, they each have the capacity to store memory.
So it’s a physiological phenomenon that I relate to the way that you flow in your communication, right?

And if I was to come back and answer your question as to how they show up in language, it’s kind of the wrong question.
They can all show up through language, but they might not all be Showing up in language that day, right?
They are fully nuanced, complex intelligences that sit in your body and your heart might show its intelligence by leaning in when someone is being more vulnerable and just staying quiet and holding space for them.
That’s the opposite of talking but it is pro-communication.

Lindsay:

Yeah I was gonna say that’s the thing right like the default when we think I’m speaking in another language with this person I need to fill the space I need to I need to say more words but actually sometimes it’s not about that it is about just sitting and waiting your gut…

Thea:

To give you an example From the gut intelligence to help you distinguish the heart and gut more your gut intelligence would notice somebody you think you might resonate with and kind of take your feet there and then when you’re talking with them you might notice that actually you don’t resonate with
them and so you get a sense of this isn’t this isn’t my person I’m going to end this conversation so you’re it’s expressing itself in language by Tying up the conversation and finding a way to leave it and then your body is taking you away again, right?
But the expression of the boundaries, the closing of the conversation you don’t want to be in is a gut intelligence expressed in language.

Lindsay:

Yeah, that makes sense.

That makes sense.

I can see that now.

Okay, this is really cool.

Thea:
It’s not a simple thing to describe, but once you can experience it in your body and you can notice how they show up for you, you’re like, oh yeah, that makes so much sense.
When I work with people, I help them connect with the way that it shows up for them.
And it’s really important that you connect with how it, how you embody your gut, heart, head intelligences.
You would do it very differently from how I do it.

Lindsay:

Yeah, same as language learning in general.
Probably the second most difficult question is, how do I learn a language?

Thea:
It’s like, well, why don’t you tell me?

Lindsay:
There are many ways, but you need to be at the center of it all.
The other thing I wanted to ask you about that again, with speaking, with communication and is linked to fear of speaking a foreign language, but is distinct as well is introverts.
Because the typical assumption might be that extroverts are really good communicators, are really good at speaking and introverts struggle.
And I don’t think that it is quite that simple.

I think that there are extrovert language learners who struggle with speaking and I think there are introvert language learners who are really great at speaking.
So I wondered what your thoughts are on that and if there’s, you know, Anything that you’ve noticed with your work in terms of flow as well in relation to introvert and extrovert?

Thea:

It’s a really important question and Almost everybody I work with would be more towards the introverted end of personality and traits.
And that’s because mostly extroverts don’t feel the need to work with a communication coach.
They’re like, can talk already.
But so they don’t see the link as obviously, but people who are more introverted in let’s face it, an extroverted society.
For much of the West, it praises and rewards extraversion.
Is the perception of yourself as an introvert.
How you relate to the way that you communicate.

I really like to work with the idea of the power of being an introverted person means that you are amazing at listening and it might be that your way into Connecting with somebody is through asking questions because you don’t want the attention on you.
That’s a really good language learning strategy.
It wouldn’t necessarily be my go-to place because I am an extrovert extrovert.
I will amuse and entertain myself into a dynamic conversation because I am extroverted so I’m throwing in humor, I’m big and loud and dynamic and I take up a lot of space and that’s part of the way that I flow as me and it’s not that that’s a better way, it’s just that is a way and so Half the
challenge of person who is introverted is to get past the story that they’ve been told that they’re not good enough at communicating when actually they might be very good at connecting.
They’re just not the person who does all the talking but then that’s the concept of what is communication.
It’s not just talking, it’s being and being with.

Lindsay:

I say this about speaking In reference to language learning that basically 50% of speaking is listening.
It’s about having a conversation.
You’re not talking to yourself in real life.
That’s the practice.

Thea:

Absolutely.
Speaking is never in isolation, even on a podcast that you’re doing on your own.
So, you know, you’re recording a video for social media on your own, you’re in your space or whatever you are, you’re talking essentially to yourself out loud and recording it somewhere.
You’re not.
You’re not recording.
You’re not talking to yourself.
You’re talking to your future audience who are going to listen to this when you publish it or when they find it a year later, six months later, or you know that you’re actually in, you’re always in relationship.

If you are speaking, you are always in relationship.
Otherwise you would just do thinking.

Lindsay:

What about the relationship with yourself when you’re speaking?

Thea:

Hmm.
What do you want to know about it?

Lindsay:

I’m thinking about how that can often be a source of that kind of shame spiral of, you know, you might, let’s say that someone listens to this episode and they think, okay, I need to, um, you know, to, to communicate better and to find that flow it’s about relationship building.

Thea:
Okay.

Lindsay:

There’s always a relationship with yourself.
Then as you are practicing this more, everything that we’ve discussed, you perhaps feel, oh, I’m not good at this.
Oh, this is too, this is so hard.
I’m just, I’m still not good at this yet.

That relationship with yourself, Can then make it really difficult to want to try again.
I’m wondering what we can do about that to make things easier, to, to kind of be more self-compassionate, to recognize that this is a process.
This isn’t like, okay, I did it one time and I’m perfect now.
I’m just coming from that angle.

Thea:

There’s two pieces I think that are at play here.
One is how you think you should be showing up to communicate with new people or people you know or people you’re working with versus what you need in an interaction to generate positive emotion.
So you can acknowledge what strengths are And what you actually need in an interaction to feel secure, safe, relaxed, and you can find ways to give yourself that.
So for example, do you find connecting with people on the fly easy or not?
If you don’t, then be more strategic about setting up Dates with people.
I don’t mean romantic dates.
I mean like you’re going to go, shall we meet up for a coffee tomorrow?

Shall we have a Zoom chat on Thursday?
Because the security of knowing when that’s going to happen so you can have a little bit of prep time is good for you.
I don’t need that security.
I love connecting with people on the fly.
Actually, I prefer it.
So for me, it’s like get outside, go to a cafe.
Sometimes I go and work in a cafe because I want to then I’m just going to approach somebody on one of the tables and be like, hey, I noticed I’ve seen you before.

That’s my favorite way to communicate.
It gives me a feeling of safety and security and relaxed.
So it’s actually about honoring what do you need to feel safe, secure, and relaxed in interactions.
If you’re really honest with yourself, how do you connect best?
And then creating that enables you to be able to give yourself that experience, that positive experience.

Lindsay:

I love this so much.
This is so true.

Thea:

It’s about acknowledging needs at the end of the day, really.
And when we are, I maintain that when we are safe, relaxed, we flow.
When we feel happy, safe, relaxed, everybody flows.
Speaking flow isn’t just for the people who are good at speaking.
It’s for everyone when you give yourself the conditions you need to flow.

So knowing those conditions that you need, that’s what’s going to get us there.

And the evidence is in your life already.
You don’t have to work this out by guessing.
Notice what time, what type of interactions you feel most safe, secure, and relaxed in, and then stretch a little bit.
Just keep stretching a tiny bit.
So maybe you’re going to, maybe you’re going to book five conversations with new people that week.
That’s a stretch for you.
That isn’t your comfort.

And maybe you’re going to meet in person instead of meeting on chatting on the phone.
That’s a stretch for you.
That’s not your place of comfort, right?
So then you’re stretching your capacity and then you become more flexible and you become more fluent.
So what’s your communication safety zone and what’s the stretch zone for you?

Lindsay:

Yeah I often reference you know that kind of graphic of like a really small circle your comfort zone and then on the other side of the piece of paper every where the magic happens and I feel like no that’s not quite where the magic happens is it…

Thea:

Yeah that’s where I went too far and I feel really stressed that’s stretched like a slingshot and flung you back yeah it’s actually the um the stretch zone is Actually just outside the comfort zone, you only need to stretch yourself a tiny bit and then you shift your state, you’re kind of more present because you’re out of habit and
It helps you be more attuned and alive and sensitive in a way.
You’re kind of, it’s like you have, if you have really crap headphones and you have cheap headphones, you’re listening to music and then you put on good headphones and you listen to the music and you’re like, oh my God, holy shit, that sounds amazing.
Your stretch zone is your capacity to pick up on more data points, more information, right?
And so you come Alive and enlivened in your relationship with what’s happening because you’re out of what you usually listen to, what you usually do.

Lindsay:

It’s like attention states.
Yeah.
Like you, if you only stay in your comfort zone, it’s rote attention.
There may be some focused attention, a little bit, but you stretch a little bit and you’re going to find more focused attention because it feels like, Ooh, I need to pay more attention.
I need to pay more attention.

Thea:

Yeah, exactly.

Lindsay:
Yeah.
I love this.
Exactly.

Thea:
And I think it’s, I think, exactly.
And I think as it’s an inherent quality that’s related to speaking outside of your main language, you’re already stretching yourself.
And then if you can, you can be more intentional about the relational stretch that you’re doing, not just the language stretch that you’re doing.

Cause I think it’s the, Often forgotten piece is what do you need relationally to make this work, not what do you need linguistically to make this work.
Then you have both sides of the interaction are taken care of.

Lindsay:

I feel like I need to go back and listen to this again like 10 times because there’s just so much good stuff and it’s so relevant to basically everyone that I work with has some level of this with whether it be speaking or something else with language learning it’s communication in some regard
That is a stopping point, there’s something that gets stuck and I feel like everything that we’ve just discussed that you’ve shared Thea is absolutely wonderful and really going to help a lot of people listening.
Thank you so much.

Thea:

Oh you are so welcome and it’s been a really interesting conversation because it’s a world I left behind many years ago.
It might be coming up to 10 years ago and Is the language learning, the linguistics, the, um, yeah, the accent work that I did and I did it for so long and I absolutely loved doing that work and then I sort of outgrew my desire for it.
But, um, I, I just really love it when somebody who has already got a capacity in the language remembers that they can just relax into the conversation, that the connection Actually is the anchor for a successful, fluent interaction.

Lindsay:

I think it’s so, you know, because language learning doesn’t stop, it doesn’t get to an end point where you’ve learnt it all.
Okay, I know the language now, the book is finished, that is everything.
It just keeps going and you can keep learning more forever.
It’s really difficult to come to a point where you feel, yes, I can now confidently say I’m fluent, I’ve got flow, I can communicate because we just still feel like it’s not enough because there’s always going to be more that we can do.

Thea:

So being able to, you can always become I’m so sorry, go ahead.

Lindsay:

No, I was just gonna say, so being able to find ways to kind of tap into this, whatever level you’re at, is massively helpful.

Thea:

It really is.
I loved the conversation of relating flow to language fluency.
Thank you so much for inviting me into your world, your language world.

Lindsay:
You’re very welcome.

And if people are listening and they want to learn more with you directly, what is the best way to do so?

Thea:

Head over to the website workingwithvoice.com.
How, depending on when you’re listening to this and when this is being published, I’m not sure when you’re publishing these, but I have the change makers reset hitting on the 17th of January, 2025. And that is to help change makers, anybody speaking up for change at any level, reduce the overwhelm
and burnout of doing that by tapping into speaking flow as a regenerative strategy.
And in the new year, I’m going to be launching the Speaking Flow State online course which is really about speaking up with clarity, integrity and energy and these practices would work for any language you want to do it in because it’s the state that comes before the speaking.
So if that interests you, you can find that again on my website workingwithvoice.com.

Lindsay:

Wonderful.
Thank you so much.
I’m going to pop my camera on now.
Hopefully my connection will stay stable.
Oh, it’s got darker here.
Hopefully you can even see me and let’s try a little bit more light.
But yeah, thank you.

Oh, there we go.
That’s better.
I needed to raise my hands.
Goodbye.

Thea:

Thank you.